In Zaidi we trust - The Giants

Oh I see, the 2010 series doesn’t count for some reason. Weird.

Like, do you not remember them bringing in Beltran in 2011?

No, I don't, but thanks for reminding me. They traded for Beltran, he was great, and they didn't make the playoffs that year. In 2012, Beltran was gone. Who did they trade for Beltran? Zach Wheeler, currently one of this best pitchers in baseball.

This is an argument you're making in favour of hitting the panic button?

I swear to god, I don't know what point you're trying to make

_Like, do you not remember them bringing in Beltran in 2011?_

No, I don't, but thanks for reminding me. They traded for Beltran, he was great, and they didn't make the playoffs that year. In 2012, Beltran was gone. Who did they trade for Beltran? Zach Wheeler, currently one of this best pitchers in baseball.

This is an argument you're making in _favour_ of hitting the panic button?

Oh I see, the 2010 series doesn’t count for some reason.

And I said this exactly where? What I said was that Lincecum was a somewhat key player in 2010, and not key at all in 2012/2014, which was a response to you equating Lincecum with Bumgarner/Posey as central to the three WS teams. He wasn't.

I’m arguing that the team needed a big signing of that type--this is exactly when teams end up overpaying somebody, when for whatever reason they decide they need this one player. Nobody needs any one player; there are always alternatives.

Suddenly I'm rooting for the Giants to have a great season with what they have.

I'm sorry you can't help me. Because I really do need your help in making sense of all this.

There’s no equating and honestly this is bizarre and annoying. I am referring to the three singularly great drafts they made in consecutive years and which I’m not sure any team has replicated since. It’s lightning in a bottle, and if it was so easy to do, teams wouldn’t bother with the Scott Borases, but teams always need to bring in/trade for what they don’t have.

The notion that Lincecum didn’t matter in 2010 is weird, like omitting Zito coming through with a winning season in 2012, Cain’s amazing 2012, Vogelsong himself in 2012 - in fact 2012 was a real whole team effort and I don’t think I’ve ever heard anyone say that Posey and Bumgarner were “central” to the 2012 title. Posey, undeniable case, but Bumgarner had the exact same regular season ERA as Vogelsong, and he got lit up in two postseason games to a degree none of the rotation ever have in that scenario. Again, you want to make a case for a pitcher being central to 2012 it’s going to be Cain and Zito. And if you want to talk postseason 2012 you’ve got to include Lincecum and Scutaro, probably Pence too.

I made a general statement covering all three titles--"equating Lincecum with Bumgarner/Posey as central to the three WS teams"--which you've chopped up into parts. As convenient shorthand, bWAR for those three seasons: Lincecum - 0.5 (two years with negative value), Bumgarner - 8.1, Posey - 16.6. Two of those players are central, one isn't.

this is bizarre and annoying.

Let's end this on some common ground.

Yes, you generalised because you didn’t know what you were talking about. “Chopping into parts” = referring to the individual seasons by what actually happened.

you didn’t know what you were talking about

I don't usually say stuff like this, but Jesus fuck it amazes me what a self-appointed expert you are based on a few months of watching YouTube clips (taken from the thread where we're all supposed to thrill to your magical journey of self-discovery): "This year I did something I didn't expect; I got into baseball."

It’s a real mystery why interest in the sport is dying.

And as for “a few months of YouTube clips” - watching all three postseasons in full, watching large swathes of regular seasons in full, reading about the teams and games in books and coverage from the beat writers who were there at the time and knew the teams best, reading blogs breaking down stuff into absolutely minuscule details to understand more. Sorry for not being born in America and this game being quite literally foreign to me.

What I’m not doing:
- getting misty eyed over Great Men in History
- writing to Bill James
- reducing people to numbers and refusing to see the game for what it is

I apologize for knocking your thread--heat of the moment, and I didn't appreciate "you didn't know what you were talking about." It just seems like you pounce on half the stuff I post here.

"Getting misty-eyed over Great Men in History"--don't know what that means...That I like Willie Mays? Someone else on here said I was jaded. Do jaded people get misty-eyed? You guys can work that out.

No apologies for writing to, reading, or continuing to view many things about baseball within the context of the profound influence James had on me 40 years ago. I know he's not the same writer now that he was then, but influences like that don't just disappear.

Statistics are a fundamental part of the game. "Refusing to see the game for what it is" was pretty much the foundation of sabermetrics.

The fact that you're not American is of no importance to me. Neither am I--and in fact used to get grief for posting on the American politics thread for that very reason.

FWIW, Lincecum played a big role out of the bullpen in the 2012 postseason. And they wouldn't have won without Zito either, even though he was just OK in the regular season. Everyone agrees that the Zito contract was a disaster, but OTOH they don't win that year without him, so is it a wash? He was overpaid, but it's not like his contract prevented the front office from making the other moves they needed to win.

And that's the point of the Correa non-deal too, isn't it? Big free agents are almost always overpaid based on what they can deliver. But if teams have the money to spend (and the Giants obviously do) then a well timed signing can alter the history of the franchise.

Well, they did sign him, and then--for reasons I agree with--they walked away. Whether that means they now need to sign (if I understand gyac's argument correctly) two high-priced free agents to replace him--the first one to attract the next one--I think they'd be better to invest that money elsewhere for now.

It was you who last week compared the Jays right now with the Giants of the three WS--tinker around, try to get in the playoffs, and take it from there: "put together a solid 85-90 win team, retool in July before the deadline, and hope for a playoff run." I really don't see that as a bad strategy in this day and age.

Again, I don't know the Giants' financial strength. My assumption is they exist somewhere in the upper half of the middle: that they can afford a huge contract like the one offered Correa, but that--unlike the Yankees or Dodgers (or Mets or Padres?)--it needs to work out or they're boxed in for a time. If I'm wrong, and they belong with those teams who can just run right over mistakes with more spending, then sure, they should have gambled on Correa.

to add more fuel to the fire, the Beltran move was pretty dumb, they were seriously not contending that year esp after the posey injury. I think keppinger was a better pickup that year

The debt on the stadium is paid off and they are now going to be printing money from the project next door. They can be in the Top 5 or so if they choose to be. Will they is the question but they need the farm to produce something, anything. The owner who's politics I hate is one of the richest in MLB.

That Beltran move was the stupidest thing ever. Brian Sabean also gave up Reynolds for McCutchen and was a total waste too. This is part of the reasons for the Zaidi move. Good luck Yankees.

What I said re Beltran deal & I also called it a bad outcome! Argue the point being made!

The point is that the need for a good hitter hasn’t ever gone away.

If they're that financially sound, maybe they should have taken a chance on Correa, I don't know. I don't think he was going to singlehandedly keep them close to the Dodgers or Padres, but--the gyac argument, I think--bringing him on board would have been a good way to attract a second big-money FA, and then they've closed that gap significantly.

Happy to wait and see how this turns out.

I haven't given this much thought to the Giants since they almost came to Toronto in 1976.

Well Correa's 13 year and 12 year deals have fallen apart. Not sure if the Twins 10 year deal is still on the table but right now I don't think any team should sign him for more than six years. IMO, the Giants did the right thing by pulling that contract despite what Giants fans think. Spending wisely is way more important even if it puts them behind yet another year.

This will also cost them Shohei Ohtani but they might not have been in the mix anyways. The way that whole thing is going to play out is going to be sensantal next year or off-season.

*sensational

A king among men

Whenever I part with Brandon Belt for the final time, my lasting memory will be something that he said in the clubhouse tonight after the game. He looked at Homeroom, Baggs and I and said unsolicited, “Do yourselves a favor guys. Go to the Ritz-Carlton and get the chicken strips.

— Henry Schulman BLUE CHECK MARK (@hankschulman) April 24, 2019

There's a little write-up on Matt Cain in here a couple of you might like:

https://open.substack.com/pub/joeposnanski/p/a-carlos-correa-redux-and-more-baseball?r=1jtu0&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=email

I enjoyed that. I’ve kind of gone off him a bit since I found out the terrible story that was posted about him in the 2010 NLDS thread though (I won’t repeat it) but he was great.

Didn't realize when I posted that, but Jay Jaffe had something much longer on Matt Cain today:

https://blogs.fangraphs.com/jaws-and-the-2023-hall-of-fame-ballot-matt-cain/

I’ve read a lot of the stuff together but he’s really been such a huge part of that decade. I loved that video they posted recently about the perfect game.

Amazing clip of Bruce Bochy telling Brandon Belt he made the team in 2012 🥲

"If you need a beer, grab a beer." pic.twitter.com/HuqL4tTlkN

— KNBR (@KNBR) January 11, 2023

https://fansided.com/wp-content/uploads/getty-images/2021/09/1341724398.jpeg

There is no crying in baseball, that was a touching moment with Belt. Going to miss him and he ended up winning the Belt Wars.

Cain was at 103 pitches as he strolled back to the dugout, where baseball's superstitions had long since taken over for his teammates. Well, for most of them.

You don't talk to a pitcher who is working on a no-hitter, and you certainly don't sit close to him in the dugout. But when Cain returned after the stressful seventh, he found Belt, in his second big league season, in his spot. Cain was amused, and a day later Belt admitted that it wasn't his first faux pas in that type of situation. In the minors, he once walked back into the dugout in the middle of a no-hitter and pointed out to teammates that there were a lot of zeros on the scoreboard.

CAIN: "I mean, it's kind of obvious. There's a towel. (Pitching coach Dave Righetti) would always lay out a towel. It was always there ... (Ryan Vogelsong) was like, 'What are you doing!' Belt was just completely oblivious, which now we know Belt and its standard for him. It was awesome."

BELT: "It wasn't funny at the time. I got the death stare from Cain and Vogey, but looking back on it, he might have gotten the perfect game because I sat there. I look at it as I think I'm good luck. But yeah, that was a scary moment for me, for sure. I thought Vogey was going to kill me."

2022-23 Hot Stove thread

Staring to get excited about baseball again, these discussions are helping. Not sure how good the Giants will be this year but will never give up on my team.

Sergio Romo is coming home.

The three-time World Series champion agreed to a contract with the Giants that will include an invitation to camp.

"I’m not coming here to make a team."

So what is Romo preparing for? @extrabaggs explains:https://t.co/9fe8vWh5Yt

— The Athletic MLB (@TheAthleticMLB) March 16, 2023

I was able to watch the Romo thing as they played the game on MLB Network, it was fun.

https://www.knbr.com/2023/03/23/giants-raked-in-booming-profit-despite-mediocre-2022-season-forbes-valuations-show/

The Yankees top the list at $7.1 billion, with the Dodgers ($4.8 billion), Red Sox ($4.5 billion), and Cubs ($4.1 billion) rounding out the top-five with San Francisco ($3.7 billion).

The Mariners brought in $83.8 million in operating income — earnings before interest, taxes, depreciation and amortization. The Giants earned $75 million in profit.

The Giants spent $179 million on player expenses, per Forbes, and took in $130 million in gate receipts. The organization’s television rights deal is also a substantial revenue driver.

The franchise’s $75 million profit mark is a major increase over the $32 million a year prior, per Forbes. The Giants saw $64 million loss for the pandemic-interrupted 2020 season.

Opening Day lineup: Wade 1B, Conforto RF, Flores 3B, Pederson DH, Yaz CF, Estrada 2B, Crawford SS, Sabol LF, Perez C. Webb RHP.

— Alex Pavlovic (@PavlovicNBCS) March 30, 2023

Buster Posey discusses expectations for Joey Bart in 2023https://t.co/hUELHZrHPT pic.twitter.com/IcIoDzlhuS

— KNBR (@KNBR) March 29, 2023

Bart not starting opening day really is telling, wow. I did read that Webb loved pitching to Perez but still.

Flores is in the lineup rather than Villar today but the plan is still to give Villar the bulk of starts at third. Flores’ calm demeanor makes him a good choice for opener in NY.

— Susan Slusser (@susanslusser) March 30, 2023

Brett Wisely’s parents were going to be here today but he was told last night he was headed to AAA. Giants then acquired Matt Beaty and changed some things around, so Wisely made team but his parents probably won’t make it here for his debut. Not ideal.

— Alex Pavlovic (@PavlovicNBCS) March 30, 2023

xp add calm demeanour to the list of intangibles

Here we go, just looking for 3 - 3 record on a six game road trip.

Go Giants!

Kuip: "I always thought, you cheer for the one you sleep with." #SensualBaseball

— LOLKNBR (@LOLKNBR) March 30, 2023

lol, for reference, Brandon Crawford's sister is married to Gerrit Cole.

I know!

Webb allowed 11 hrs total last year btw.

Webb had 12 stakeouts compared to Cole's 11. Webb ended up giving up four earn runs. Giants have no bats, going to be a long ass year.

Yeah he was fine except when he wasn’t.