De La Soul - Classic or Dud?

Yeah, I remember the reviews being, like, “why are they such boring sourpusses now”, which seems like a mystifying take on a record as full of wonder and complexity as DLSID

Buhloone is also one of my favourites of all time but I still wish Three Days Later and Ego Trip went on a bit longer!

Mercy!

Unrelatedly and dorkishly, my IRL name is Paul and I had “Paul’s Revenge” as my answering machine message for perhaps much longer than I should have (‘whatever you say, I agree”)

I was curious about the negative reviews - here are two FWIW:

Bill Wyman in the Chicago Reader for Buhloone Mindstate (which placed at #8 for that year's Pazz & Jop poll)
https://chicagoreader.com/arts-culture/de-la-soul-a-tribe-called-quest/

"It’s another exposition of pulverized pop, but with side trips into drones, weird jazz, and other sorts of less-than-compelling sonic dreamscapes. It also contains a lyrical universe that’s beyond this willing listener’s ken, which is a nice way of saying I haven’t the faintest idea what the fuck they’re talking about."

And in Trouser Press's guide, written by David Sheridan and/or Steven Mirkin:

https://trouserpress.com/reviews/de-la-soul/

On De La Soul Is Dead, as on the Beastie Boys’ Paul’s Boutique, the band’s ambition outstrips its ideas. The feeble, forced skits that dot the album fall flat, and many of the songs can be heard as a reaction to criticism that De La Soul was soft. Unlike “Do as De La Does” (from 3 Feet High and Rising), where the group puts itself in a leadership position, songs like “Afro Connections at a Hi 5 (In the Eyes of the Hoodlum)” and “Millie Pulled a Pistol on Santa” hew closer to rap convention, with harder-edged lyrics and sound. The album’s not bad, but it lacks some of the qualities that made the debut unique.

Superficially, Buhlööne Mind State is a return to form. While it does resemble the first album, there’s a pro forma air to the proceedings that even guests like Fred Wesley and Maceo Parker can’t allay; the sound is in the house, but the trio’s once-profound inspiration has fled.

It also contains a lyrical universe that’s beyond this willing listener’s ken, which is a nice way of saying I haven’t the faintest idea what the fuck they’re talking about."

oh like Wyman knew what Elvis Costello was talking about

no specific shade to any listed critics but i always took the in-its-time reaction to de la's mature work as condescending and at least racist-adjacent.
i mean, everyone loved paul's boutique...

Buhloone's their most profound record imo. Not hard, complicated. The Native Tongues were falling apart and this is the record where they say that out loud.

Did everyone love PB on release?

i mean, everyone loved paul's boutique...

Not so sure about this. I loved it, was more of a fan than I had been of Licensed to Ill, but I don't remember reading many super-positive reviews.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul%27s_Boutique#Critical_reception

I recall the chapter entitled "Steely Dan: Understood as the Redemption of the White Negro - a conversation between Greg Tate and Vernon Reid" in Tate's Everything But the Burden features a digression about why critics didn't accept the change of direction on De La Soul Is Dead, though I don't remember the details.

Critics were pretty terrible about most early 90s rap classics.

De La Soul is dead got 5 mics in The Source the only review that mattered

I recall Paul's Boutique being savaged in rap reviews at the time. I know it's hardly the gold standard of rap criticism, but I remember a review in Yo! or Word Up! or one of those other glossy newsstand-type mags that said something to the effect of "even the title is wack"

Scrolling down fast I thought this was a lyric bc it started out like a brag

yeah, i grabbed all of the downloads at the time.
just checked : they are all encoded at 320.

*sample from Peg*

The PB wiki linked above:

"Contemporary reviews of Paul's Boutique were uniformly positive, with the production singled out for praise. ... Since Paul's Boutique was first released, its critical standing has improved significantly."

lol

It did sell disappointingly compared to Licensed to Ill (still now 5x more sold)

yeah iirc it was a critical fave but didn't shift those crazy teenage numbers like LTI

def remember my slightly older friend who worked at a record store and didn't like the first one RAVING about how amazing PB was

I love PB yet remember the splat "Hey Ladies made as first single

IIRC there weren't many shows in support of Paul's Boutique - I'm sure that didn't help (and it's a shame because the live stuff that's available is great).

Also during their book tour, they made it clear that Capitol didn't give the album much promotion, preferring to pour their marketing dollars into Donny Osmond's new record. (They also mocked the record's video, with Ad-Rock calling it a "sexy funeral.")

"Shake Yr Rump" is one of the all-time great opening tracks, how did it not get released as a single

^^^

It did weirdy lead off the Hey Ladies single and it had a video, so it kinda was?

https://www.discogs.com/release/1061910-Beastie-Boys-Love-American-Style-EP

PB was the end of them being part of the rap scene, moving towards their alt phase

I had the cassette version of that EP; it was sold as a cassingle (the last two tracks are instrumental versions of "Shake Your Rump" and "Hey Ladies").

There was some animus over the Beasties leaving Def Jam. I remember Chuck D dissing Paul’s Boutique.

Chuck D even said, ‘The dirty secret among the Black hip hop community at the time of the release was that Paul’s Boutique had the best beats.”

i do kinda remember rap people feeling a bit betrayed by PB but the rock critics fuckin loved it

The 33 1/3 book is solid.

The version of The Magic Number that is now streaming is missing the Eddie Murphy sample. From the version on Spotify at least. Few people seem to have spotted it so far if Twitter is anything to go by.

it definitely sounds different than what i remember. the narrative for so long was "tommy boy is screwing them!" i never considered there would still be sample clearance issues. i mean that stuff was in print forever. hrmph.

still thrilled to see it actually happening.

the narrative for so long was "tommy boy is screwing them!" i never considered there would still be sample clearance issues

two things are true in this case

i do believe that the language in some deals was related to the specific formats at the time (lp, cassette, etc) and that you may have to re-clear stuff for streaming, but i'm no lawyer

As someone who worked in clearance (albeit not in music) I can say that one of the major hangups for a lot of late 80s/early 90s agreements was how understandably there was no anticipation of the possibility of digital and online usage, and how some documents didn’t include the all-encompassing part where they cited any and all future media usage as being covered.

Yeah, like why they had to remove or re-clear the music used in MTV shows, etc.

I had to license a song for a video my school produced for a faculty member - my first exposure to licensing - and the guy I dealt with was nice enough to walk me through it. IIRC he said you typically want "all world" (every territory and country) and most importantly "all media" and I think that became the standard term in the digital age in anticipation of downloads, streaming and everything else.

I think you actually want something like "all media, whether now known or hereafter devised"...

Just listened on youtube, and yep, no one asks if anyone in the audience ever got hit by a car. I don't know the intricacies of sample clearance -- specifically, why some artists are easier to clear than others -- but it's a little surprising that they were able to clear Zeppelin but not Eddie Murphy. And if this missing bit is representative of the rest of the album, I assume "Cool Breeze On The Rocks" will sound a LOT different.

two things are true in this case

I believe it was a late '90s Mojo piece about this album where I read that Tommy Boy had repeatedly assured the band and Prince Paul (who kept meticulous notes on the samples) that all the samples were cleared. Some were -- I think Hall & Oates and a handful of others -- but most weren't. So they were blindsided by the Turtles lawsuit.

oh yeah I remember reading that - in general I've never heard anything good about Tommy Boy

It can be ridiculous. There was some show Carol Burnett was in where she needed to clear a Stephen Sondheim song, and she (and Sondheim) thought it would be easy because they were good friends. However it was something Sondheim co-wrote with a now deceased person, and when Sondheim contacted the publisher, they apparently just said "you only own half the rights, we need to talk to the estate of the other writer" etc. Forgot what happened afterwards but long story short, the more approvals you need, the more it sucks.

There was an article on Dylan licensing his music to films (before he sold his catalog) and it was easy - Dylan gets the proposal and either he likes it or doesn't, and he wouldn't price the license out of the film's budget which is why some films with less-than-huge budgets got to use Dylan songs. He was the only guy who had to sign off.

Weird that the lyric video got the Syl Johnson sample wrong, 'shang-a-lang'? With an accent maybe, idk.

sadly the chances that we'll ever see the De La Soul on WKRP in Cincinnati episode are almost nil

I always heard it as "shang a lang" but I never heard the original source until moments ago despite it being sampled to death.

In the video it says "a tri-camaro system is now set", which is kind of amazing, but it made me realize that I don't know what the actual original lyric is. All the online lyrics sites have something like "A tri-camera rolls since our music's now set" listed, but for the last 34 years I thought they were saying "a tricameral system", like three governing bodies.

Re: birdistheword

I thought licensing songs to films was primarily under the purview of most artists themselves and not their publishers. The Beastie Boys were infamous for being very particular about what films they allowed to utilize their songs. David Bowie wanted very large sums of money. He was probably one of the first artists to ask for six figures or more. Kate Bush, conversely, let Keith Gordon use “Running Up That Hill” for $1500 or so for The Chocolate War (1988), and it’s amazingly remained there on every home video release

I thought licensing songs to films was primarily under the purview of most artists themselves and not their publishers.

I think it depends on a few things including, but not limited to, the relationship of the artist to their publisher, and whether or not the artist actually owns and controls their own publishing, and who controls the masters.

In 2011 a TV show wanted to use "Who Are You," but Universal wanted $150,000 -- totaling $300,000, because the same amount has to be paid to both the artist (for the song publishing) and Universal (for rights to the master). But if the show's producers went to Townshend directly, whatever price Townshend set determined the cost. In this instance, Pete watched some episodes of the show, read a synopsis of the episode, and said "How about $7500?" So the show got "Who Are You" for $15,000 which is apparently dirt cheap.

And based on Joe Pera Reads The Church Announcements, I assume a similar deal was struck between that show's producers and Townshend/Universal, because I doubt Joe Pera had a budget approaching six figures for an entire season.

In 2011 a TV show wanted to use "Who Are You," but Universal wanted $150,000 -- totaling $300,000, because the same amount has to be paid to both the artist (for the song publishing) and Universal (for rights to the master). But if the show's producers went to Townshend directly, whatever price Townshend set determined the cost. In this instance, Pete watched some episodes of the show, read a synopsis of the episode, and said "How about $7500?" So the show got "Who Are You" for $15,000 which is apparently dirt cheap.

Was that Louis CK's Louie? Terrible man, but that scene was hilarious.

De La Soul Is Dead reissues (cd, 2lp, cassette) drop April 7.

I only see black vinyl for now, unlike the 5 variations for 3 Feet.

sucks it took so long to get "The Magic Number" up on streaming. It was played over the closing credits of the Spiderman movie in 2021 and those Marvel movies are big awareness drivers for older songs.

rip david "trugoy the dove" jolicoeur.

Is allhiphop.com a reliable outlet? I'm waiting until something I recognize reports it, but this sucks if true.

plug 2. the best ever. rest in power.