To What Extent Does Your Life Revolve Around Alejandro Kirk? (The 2023 Blue Jays Thread)

didn't see we finally got a new thread! here's what i just posted on the old one:

love the Bassitt signing. thought he was gonna get like 24M for 4 years; so this is pretty fair.
then Murphy is traded and Vasquez signs, so if any team wants a bonafide starting C, the Jays are the only game in town now!

with his location skills and arsenal, he does indeed feel like a guy that will age well.

and ya. thread name guarantees Kirk is on his way out (please get Daulton Varsho)!

also RIP my favourite thread name i ever came up with

In all the free-agent talk, I haven't heard a word about Stripling. He's still a Jay, right?

Long gone now, i’d recon.

just stopping in to lmao at the thread title

Bassitt is a great signing (I "know" him well via fantasy baseball).

Still not sure about this offseason strategy of "stockpiling #3 pitchers with upside and hope for the entire offense to bounce back", with a side order of "count on the Yankees regressing, TB's smoke and mirrors magic running out (perhaps due to the ban on shifts), Boston acting like a mid-market team, and Baltimore's 2021 being a strange fluke".

It really seems like Shapiro and Atkins have no interest in assembling a potential 100-win team, they're happy with being the 2010-2014 Giants -- put together a solid 85-90 win team, retool in July before the deadline, and hope for a playoff run.

The jays had one of the best offences in baseball last year! First in OPS+!!! I dont think they need to do a lot - Bassitt is an improvement over Stripling. I just think they have to find a decent LH bat in the outfield and they’re better than last year easily.

I looked at the decline in runs scored (71 fewer than 2021), stupidly forgetting that scoring was down everywhere in MLB. So yes, the offense is fine even though they haven't replaced Teoscar's bat. I still think that a lot needs to go right on the pitching side to have a chance at a serious playoff run, but the potential is obviously there.

Just gut feeling, but I felt like the 2021 team was much more consistent; they seemed hapless for stretches in 2022 (and, if true, had enough hot streaks to make up for that).

they def had a very bad time with hot/cold spells. Bo especially was terrible the first 2/3 and then a god for the last 1/3. Vlad too did not look anything like his 2021-self. you'd expect some regression, but he was taking some bad hacks out there. then we had an outfield that was rotating between injuries a lot.

Posnanski is polling readers on each franchise's greatest moment. You get four to choose from, a "pass" option, and a write-in option. (The Royals get six moments--hometown--and the Yankees get ten, with an accompanying "Ugh.")

I voted instantaneously for Bautista over Carter, so quickly that I didn't even notice what the Jays' other two moments were. Alomar's HR would be one, I assume; I don't know if Edwin's would be the other, or if it'd be something silly like Winfield and the seagull (he has a few of those mixed in).

pirates' is obviously mazeroski

for me personally i only have impressions of the we are family era (i had just turned eight when they last won the world series)

later key moments i recall:
- francisco cabrera + sid bream (not a great one)
- watching doug drabek lose a no-hitter in the ninth against the phillies circa 1992 (also not a great one)
- some game circa 1991-92 in the ninth with lee smith trying to close the door and i simply *knew* bonds was going to go deep . . . and then he did

sorry for non-jays content, but nevertheless

I voted for Clemente's two throws in the '71 Series, only because I saw that; I think I mostly voted for things I saw.

Not always, though--I voted for Robinson's debut over Gibson's HR.

dave parker's all-star game throw, maybe

For the record, I welcome meandering, off-topic convos here.
Let the Jays thread this day forth, be forever be about whatever we feel like switching the conversation to

I wasn't alive in '71 and was too young to remember '79, unfortunately my most notable moment involving the Pirates is Francisco Cabrera '92 :(

For me personally, I think Bautista's HR has overtaken Carter's HR, because of recency bias and the fact that the game itself was one of the damned craziest things I ever saw. But objectively speaking, Carter's HR WON THE WS and is the obvious answer.

Carter is the obvious answer, agreed, but having seen both, I know Bautista's was more cathartic for me. It was just so incredible at every level: the inning, the game, the season, the drought, the player.

Carter's HR was this great cherry on top of a 10-year run of success; they won the WS the year before, and if they lose that game, there's still tomorrow. Bautista's HR wasn't exactly the Cubs or the Red Sox finally winning a Series, but I swear that's what it felt like for me.

i voted! and i hope everyone voted for the HR bouncing off of canseco's head for the best rangers moment. i love that José Martínez's father hit that HR, everything about is perfect

I voted for Canseco too! What other Rangers moment is there to vote for? I guess Ryan's no-hitter would be the less jokey vote...What about the Cardinals, KM? I almost voted for Freese, but I deferred to history and went with Ozzie.

What other Rangers moment is there to vote for?
...What about the Cardinals

i ended up voting for Freese's Game 6 HR for the Cardinals. and i wonder, if that game had gone the other way, if Josh Hamilton's 2-run HR in the top of the 10th would have been the top Rangers moment?

i almost voted for Ozzie's HR in game 5 of the '85 NLCS. i was just a year or two too young to watch it with any comprehension, when it happened, but it still gives me chills to watch it. i know it was the first HR ozzie ever hit from the left side in the big leagues (did he ever hit one in the minors or before? i need to find out). and of course, "go crazy folks, go crazy!", the beers flying and ozzie pumping his fist.

i think one that should have been on the list was adam wainwright's curveball to beltran to close out the 2006 NLCS.

I can't remember if it was one of the choices (and can't check because I've voted), but the Rangers' first great moment was probably David Clyde's first start on 6/27/73. He'd just turned 18 a couple of months earlier, and there were 35,000 people at Arlington Stadium. He beat the Twins 4-3. His line: 5 innings, 1 hit, 2 runs, 7 strikeouts...and 8 walks. (The next guy got a four-inning save.)

https://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/TEX/TEX197306270.shtml

Drew Hutchinson's gotten an invite to spring training--should have held off the thread title.

https://jaysjournal.com/posts/toronto-blue-jays-announce-five-minor-league-contracts-including-some-old-friends

In the Unlikely Event Drew Hutchison Posts a Sub-5.00 ERA, How Will You React? (Toronto Blue Jays 2016)

Hutchison's ERA in 2016 wound up being 5.25

Haven't had a chance to read this yet, looks like it could be a useful summary:

https://jaysjournal.com/posts/blue-jays-looking-back-at-the-first-18-months-of-the-ross-atkins-era-in-toronto

I didn't know that they traded Pearce for Espinal.

I never thought that Anthopoulos was treated unfairly, he eventually built a WS contender in his fifth year but it was a win-now team without a solid core of homegrown talent, the fall could have been brutal. In the end it worked out fine for everyone, Anthopoulos did a much better job in Atlanta that he did in Toronto (and won a WS), and the Jays are an exciting team again.

AA inherited a solid team with a ton of young talent in Atlanta. i think he's a solid GM, but he really lucked out with that Atlanta gig.

In 2015 I was kind of resigned to "Well, we won but AA traded away our future," but I don't think any of those guys panned out, did they? So you can get lucky. You can trade away Jeff Bagwell or Fred McGriff or Zack Wheeler for a little bit of short-term gain, or you can trade away Daniel Norris.

I wouldn't say he lucked out, he's been there for five years now, added a lot more young talent, and has them set up as a perennial 95-win club for the next few years.

The Norris trade could have looked bad down the line (a front line young starter vs two months of David Price) but was absolutely the right move. Wasn't Shapiro really down on that trade?

Making the trade look even better is that, after his spectacular half-season with the Jays (9-1, 2.30), Price walked away (as everyone knew he would) and was never that great again...with two huge asterisks: his mediocre post-season in 2015 for the Jays, and his great WS with the Red Sox in 2018, where he should have been named MVP.

We just signed Brandon Belt for ~10M?

I think Syndergaard and D’Arnaud were the only prospects that sort-of panned out in the big trades leading up to the playoff runs

You have undoubtedly seen this Belt #content, clem?

Via a blog post from 2019... Brandon Belt LOVES the chicken fingers at the Ritz Carlton in Toronto.

Signing bonus, @BlueJays? 🐔

(h/t: @JaysKid_RHP) pic.twitter.com/zCol9HBnq0

— Tim and Friends (@timandfriends) January 10, 2023

Brandon Belt loves the chicken tenders from The Ritz-Carlton Toronto, so you know we had to try them 🍽️ pic.twitter.com/7BjdeOgscK

— Tim and Friends (@timandfriends) January 10, 2023

My brother-in-law was telling me about that right after they picked him up...Pretty funny; he might be our new Joe Biagini.

I think I meant to say Jason Grilli...the guy who was a really colourful character.

Grilli was angry from what I remember. Biagini was the hilariously awkward guy

Yeah Belt is 100% that. I hope he does well in Toronto!

I'm really getting the two of them confused...Wasn't Grilli the one who was so demonstrative after striking out someone, a real gung-ho guy? Maybe I did mean Biagini.

Ya, angry/intense - not at all disarmingly goofy as biagini. Also doesn’t help that grilli was like almost 7 feet tall!

not sure where to post this (not hot stove, no 2023 thread yet) so i'll post it on the highest ranking active ilx team thread

https://i.imgur.com/1CgP7ii.jpg

I think I saw that; there was another mlb.com writer who picked the Jays for the WS.

I feel good about them, but I'm not quite there yet. Guerrero having another 2021 would go a long way towards making that ranking above happen.

i know they force sports journalists to pick WS favorites and stuff like that, but it seems like a waste of time to me. the dodgers of the last 7 years should have won at least 5 world series or so. baseball in the postseason is always surprising and confounding.

i'm probably shaped by the cardinals front office philosophy at this point, but i always just root for them to make the playoffs. i'm thrilled when they do, then i hope for the best from there and hope it's entertaining

i think a good way to judge a team is how fun they are to watch, and off the top of my head, the jays have vlad jr, bichette jr, and of course the center of the solar system, alejandro kirk. that's a pretty fun team

Sometimes I wish they were maybe 3% less fun, and a little more focused--why I liked Marcus Semien so much--but when they're winning, yes.

Cardinals are amazing. I'm looking at their franchise page, and they've only missed the playoffs seven times this century (15/22), have only been sub-.500 once, and all that despite (I think) doling out much less money that the most extravagant spenders. They've got to be the most cost-effective franchise by far. The Rays come to mind, but they're only 8/22 at making the playoffs.

Bichette's the last guy they haven't settled with (and who could still go to arbitration):

https://www.mlb.com/news/blue-jays-2023-arbitration-deadline-agreements

In my very large sample size of six or seven people, everyone I know is down on him to one degree or another. He's definitely not a rate-stat/sabermetric kind of player, but he still manages to keep his OPS+ in the 120-130 range, and he's 8.5 WAR the last two seasons. September saved him last year. I hope he stays.

If it were up to me:

1) Put Buck and Howarth up next year. Not to be morbid, but both have had issues with cancer (not sure where they are in their treatment/remission), so make sure they're around for that.

2) Henke the next year to correct an egregious omission.

3) Edwin the year after that.

Great Ross Atkins explanation of Berrios: "deploy" three times in 20 seconds.

Buck and Howarth going in together would be fitting and well deserved. They have, what, eighty years or service to the Jays between them?

of service...

i'm with you on those names going up! is Crime Dog a non-starter?

check out At The Letters pod for great insight on that Berrios debacle. I just, cannot. with this team anymore, so i don't have an opinion on that post-season. less traumatizing than last year? so they're headed in the right direction

I'll look for that. McGriff was here for a relatively short time, I think that's the only issue--three-and-a-half seasons. Alomar was only here for five, but that included the two WS (and his name is down now anyway).

It was so funny at my sister's yesterday for Thanksgiving. My brother-in-law would say "Okay, no more talk about the Jays"--then we'd drift back to that, get worked up all over again, then we'd stop, then we'd drift back...

"Media availability" with Shapiro tomorrow. God, I hope someone steps to the mic and nails him to the wall. (Maybe Sid Seixeiro will be there.) "You basically think you're a genius and the rest of us are stupid, right?"

30 years ago today, Joe Carter touched 'em all.

I remember it so well, the time has passed in the blink of an eye.

The good life: 10,950 people have come up to him in restaurants and elevators and beaches and expressed their gratitude.

joe carter hater for life, checking in

Mitch! How's everything?

it's chill i've grown a beard and put my hair in a manknot and go by 'craig kimbrel' now

Nice...For what it's worth, I count what happened to Williams after the HR as near-tragic--sports fans at their most idotic.

Also idiotic.

Hmmmmn...

https://calltothepen.com/posts/assessing-2023-mlb-front-offices-ross-atkins-toronto-blue-jays

An analytical argument as to why Atkins is one of the best GMs in the game. Don't know how many Jays fans would endorse that.

Dan Shulman is a finalist for the Ford Frick Award. Didn't realize he's been around for so long.

https://www.tsn.ca/mlb/dan-shulman-jacques-doucet-among-10-ford-c-frick-award-finalists-1.2025751

I don't know anything about Doucet. Can someone here tell me more about him?

As a teenager I would listen to Expos games in French on the radio while playing video games. Jacques Doucet is pretty much the voice of the Expos for me.

Thermo, NoTime, Francis: let's go, we (and we alone) can fix this!

https://blogs.fangraphs.com/instagraphs/job-posting-toronto-blue-jays-multiple-entry-level-opportunities/

#6 in that bulleted list: "Help us locate Alek Manoah."

all these job postings requiring interpersonal skills can piss right off

Think about it -- if the Rangers don't crush the Jays in that four game sweep in Rogers Centre, then they probably don't make the playoffs. A series split could have given the Jays 92 wins and the fifth seed, then they face the Rays instead of the Twins in the first round. The Rangers path to the WS could have been ours. Clearly the Rangers' success is all thanks to us and the Jays are the uncrowned 2023 champions of baseball.

Trust me on this, the math checks out.

I thought about it--you're right.

everything except expecting the jays to beat the rays lol

Both Teoscar and Gurriel Jr. are back on the market. Can't see the Jays suddenly reversing their pitching/defense commitment, though.

It’s kind of shocking how bad Teo’s defence is, because he never looked embarrassing out there or anything

Bautista debuting on the HOF ballot got me thinking about Joe Carter...Very different players, and Bautista was better by almost any measure (except, I guess, 100-RBI seasons, even though Carter's exhibit #1 in how tainted those can be), but they're linked by three things: 1) two most famous Jays HRs ever; 2) 300-something HR; 3) Bautista, like Carter, will likely be one-and-out.

I forgot that Carter was a one and done. He was a very famous player with borderline HOF counting stats, I thought that he'd hang around the ballot for a few years. bWAR isn't friendly to him -- terrible defense and low OBPs (although WAR wasn't around when he was HOF eligible).

i think he was a 30/30 guy too!

Looking at the list of one-and-dones from Carter's year (2004), and it's pretty impressive: along with Joe you had Dennis Martinez, Dave Stieb, Jimmy Key, Kevin Mitchell, Doug Drabek, Terry Pendleton, and Cecil Fielder. (Molitor and Eckersley both went in that year in their first try.)

That is amazing. Ranking that 2004 ballot by WAR, you get HOFers at #1-#6, then Tommy John at #7, then four O&Ders at #8-#11 (Hernandez, Stieb, Key, Martinez). Further down the WAR-ranked ballot: five additional HOFers.

In WAR7, Stieb is fourth, behind only Trammell, Sandberg, and Blyleven.

Thing is, that was a huge year for iconic Jays entering the ballot with Carter, Stieb, and Key. (Plus Molitor and Fielder debuting.) And I don't have any recollection of that.

Blue Jays "Open To" Alek Manoah Trade Offers https://t.co/dfOxfamI0o pic.twitter.com/F47ZenCb3W

— MLB Trade Rumors (@mlbtraderumors) November 20, 2023

yeah, that's a big "who knows?" with Manoah. I can't imagine Ryu will be back.

TSN reporter Scott Mitchell has sparked the rumour that Jays are "big players" on Ohtani, and a possible trade scenario involving basically Bichette for Juan Soto, Bo apparently plannning to seek free agency over an extension. Not sure how this trade would make sense. Would be exciting to have another blockbuster trade like the Dec 1990 Jays/Padres deal, but it's all conjecture anyway.

I don't know their contract particulars, but all things being equal, what sane organization wouldn't take Soto for Bo in a millisecond?

Soto's even a few months younger.

Feel like Pads might be more interested in Vladdy, they don’t need another shortstop but they really need a 1B/DH

Vlad the Greeter? Think I'd make that one in a millisecond too.

(Basically, there are only a handful of players in the game I wouldn't trade for Soto.)

The Manoah story looks like a big load of nothing IMO, the sources are "rival executives" inquiring about SP pitching depth, and obviously the Jays have plenty of that. Obviously any team that talks to Toronto about pitching is going to ask about Manoah. There's nothing to this story at all.

I don't listen radio games very often these days, which is sometimes a matter of access; most games are carried on 980 out of London, but not all of them. So I don't really have an opinion on this:

https://www.bluebirdbanter.com/2023/11/29/23981650/sportsnet-releases-ben-wagner

I thought he was great, in my limited sample of radio games over the years.

Howarth called the decision "Embarrassing"
https://torontosun.com/sports/baseball/toronto-blue-jays/embarrassing-legendary-blue-jays-broadcaster-jerry-howarth-rips-rogers-for-ben-wagners-dismissal

I've got to figure that if Howarth pointedly speaks out, it much be as bad as he says. (My first thought yesterday was, "Is there some transgression here?" Just firing your radio guy with no specific reason given is odd indeed.)

i liked him. was surprised tho, to see the jays subreddit was sort of mixed on the matter. expected a lot more table flipping

Sources: Matt Chapman is en route to Toronto today.

Too soon