things I learned about in baseball this week/how i learned to stop worrying and love baseball

very heartwarming thread. i drifted away from watching baseball when i was a teenager and then i had to move home around the start of the 2021 season bc of breakup/job loss/life stuff and the giants miracle season, which i watched with my mom who is a lifelong fan, was the thing that gave structure to my day and kept me from falling into self-loathing + despair. and since then i've watched almost every game.

love watching the highlights from matt cain's perfect game + tim lincecum's two no-hitters. somehow even knowing what's going to happen the close plays have my heart racing.

I think it was Dan Epstein's excellent Big Hair and Plastic Grass where I read it--thought I had it, but maybe I read a library copy. Anyway, here's a pretty detailed account.

https://theathletic.com/1785449/2020/05/01/what-the-f-is-it-with-this-guy-the-day-dock-ellis-threw-at-every-cincinnati-red/

In the spring of 1974, Dock Ellis decided he was sick of the Cincinnati Reds’ shit. The Big Red Machine was ascending. Three years removed from a World Series, the Pirates were on the decline. Ellis couldn’t abide by how his teammates handled the paradigm shift. When he saw the Reds, he vowed to send a message. On the first day of May, he got his chance.

otm

the Dockumentary is absolutely worth watching if you can track it down

This has been bugging me, so I found the Facebook post I put up eight years ago--of all places, it was Rick Perlstein's The Invisible Bridge where I read about it.

Most amazing thing I’ve yet come across in Rick Perlstein’s The Invisible Bridge: a 1974 game between the Pirates and the Reds where Dock Ellis stated his intention ahead of time to hit everyone who stepped up to bat. Here’s the box score:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/.../PIT/PIT197405010.shtml

In the first inning, Ellis hit Rose, hit Morgan, hit Dan Dreissen, walked Perez (who, according to an account I read, had to dodge every pitch), then got pulled (not ejected), but only after almost hitting Bench with a couple of pitches. Perlstein says it was in retaliation for a racist security guard who harassed Ellis at Riverfront Stadium; the other explanation I’ve come across is that Ellis was tired of the Reds beating up on Pittsburgh, and wanted to send them a message.

I was 12 when this happened, and had been a big fan for two or three years. The Reds were my favourite team. No recollection of this at all.

The link above for the box score is incomplete:

https://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/PIT/PIT197405010.shtml

Learning about America through baseball:

https://i.postimg.cc/02Kwkjb6/A9-B42-B72-EF71-47-D8-BC64-4-E8-D7194-CD83.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/FHjkS6bN/F9-E63-D39-5-A7-B-4-D30-B66-E-4-D01-EC4-F1-D77.jpg

Georgia - the South
Alabama - the South
North Carolina - maybe????
Tennessee- lmao no
Arizona- what the fuck is Arizona

Btw these articles were from the 2014 regular season, a season where Bumgarner lived in Tim Hudson’s basement

Tennessee is the South. They’re busting Cain’s chops for moving to Arizona

“Every game day there’s grits”

The secret of the Giants’ success revealed!

Tennessee is the South. They’re busting Cain’s chops for moving to Arizona

Bitch don’t tell me the Robinson/Reese story is possibly apocryphal; I want to believe

That story is featured prominently in the Ken Burns documentary, and I think I've read mention of it elsewhere too; have to believe it happened. (Such a great story.)

A busy week with work & personal stuff but again back on my pitchers of the noughties kick. Watched some Roy Halladay videos and read this SI piece about his death, life and some incredibly frank views from his family. Some highlights:

Dodgers righty Brandon McCarthy tweeted, “Roy Halladay was your favorite player’s favorite player.”

He planned to fly himself to the minor league affiliates. (“I don’t know if the Phillies will reimburse you for the fuel,” Miller cautioned. “I don’t care about that!” Halladay said.) He gave journals to anyone who would take them. He discovered there was no audiobook of The Mental ABCs, so he booked studio space and paid someone to read it aloud. He planned to pursue a bachelor’s degree and eventually a master’s.

Outside of Bright House Field, Halladay coached his teenage sons, Braden and Ryan. He echoed his father’s insistence on persistence, but he did not push them quite so hard. Big Roy mentioned that Little Roy had been throwing 90 m.p.h. at 17, but Braden at the same age struggled to hit 80. Little Roy didn’t want to hear it. He was a father, too, and he would teach his boys his way.

The games have a different energy and a charming authenticity here. Fans start their own chants — ¡Le voy al Sarapes mas fuerte! — with no prompting from the scoreboard. Even the youngest fans seem glued to the action. They voice their disapproval with whistles, not boos. When the home pitcher gets two strikes on a batter, the smallest of voices are the first to chirp out what is less a cheer and more an imploring wail:

“¡Pónchalo! ¡Pónchalo!”

“Strike him out!”

There are other differences. A player’s thumping walk-up music fades out when the pitcher comes set, but then it starts up again after the delivery. As a result, every plate appearance seems to have its own soundtrack, which has the odd effect of making each confrontation more compelling.

Sigfredo Sánchez’s cell phone started ringing with all of Puerto Rico on the line.

“Hang up the phone!” Menjivar told him. “Stop talking to people. You’re not allowed to talk about it!”

“Fucking awesome,” Lincecum said to reporters. “If you guys can print it, print it.”

Couldn’t then, Timmy. Can now.

Righetti threw a no-hitter for the New York Yankees on July 4, 1983. Like Sánchez, Righetti’s historic day broke a long franchise drought. His no-hitter was the Yankees’ first since Don Larsen’s perfect game in the 1956 World Series. And while Righetti was celebrating his achievement, someone swiped all his stuff from the Yankees dugout.

So amid the delirious joy at AT&T Park, Righetti ordered Giants reliever Merkin Valdéz to collect Sánchez’s cap, glove and jacket.

I can't read any more Roy Halladay articles. Too upsetting.

Bob Gibson, haha fucking hell. Legendary quote about this on his Wikipedia page

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8COgmnqoTc

“Between games, (Willie) Mays came over to me and said, ‘Now, in the second game, you’re going up against Bob Gibson.’ I only half-listened to what he was saying, figuring it didn’t make much difference. So I walked up to the plate the first time and started digging a little hole with my back foot…No sooner did I start digging that hole than I hear Willie screaming from the dugout: ‘Noooooo!’ Well, the first pitch came inside. No harm done, though. So I dug in again. The next thing I knew, there was a loud crack and my left shoulder was broken. I should have listened to Willie.”

damn he went down like he was shot!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNLW6sEBlaQ

I’d read about this before, but I’d never seen the actual grand slam.

The funny thing is, as he peered out to the mound during that fourth-inning at-bat, Clark wasn’t trying to break the code of how Maddux might pitch to him. He just wanted to see if Cubs manager Don Zimmer would signal for left-hander Paul Assenmacher, who was warming up in the bullpen.

“I didn’t know whether he was going to take Maddux out,” Clark said. “So I’m looking right at the conference on the mound to figure out what’s gonna happen.”

“The Thrill” was already 2 for 2 off Maddux in Game 1, having doubled in a run in the first inning and hitting a solo homer in the third.

Then Zimmer strolled out to the mound in the fourth. In terms of strategic mistakes, Zimmer’s biggest one was standing a mere 5-foot-9.

“Maddux is standing on the mound and Zimmer has his back to me,’’ Clark recalled. “And he’s quite a bit shorter than Maddux (who is 6 feet), plus (Zimmer) is on the downslope of the mound. So, I can see Maddux.

“I’m looking right at Maddux — right at him — and he goes, ‘fastball in.’ And I was like, ‘Oh my goodness.’ I looked at Kevin Mitchell and said, ‘Did you see what he just said?’”

As much as I like Fred McGriff, it's hard to make a case for him being HOF-worthy but not Will Clark--more bWAR, higher OPS+, more MVP support, even better post-season numbers, retired at 36 and still a dangerous hitter (just as the PED era hits its stride; looked like he was really going to benefit from inflated offense in the game). I'm sure the VC will induct him within the next decade.

if the VC have their way, anyone who made it past second base will eventually be in the hall. i'm sure they were pretty much like "ooohh lotsa home runs and RBIs. you're in!"

McGriff had one big thing in his favour--well liked by everyone he played for/with/in front of--whereas I vaguely remember some issues between Clark and Bonds. Yet when I google them together, I get Clark saying Bonds was the best player he ever played with or against. So I don't know.

Letting the VC committee almost guide his BBWAA ballo--because what's the point of waiting around for the inevitable?--was the subject of a Posnanski column the other day:

But — and this is what I’ve been thinking about — maybe I’ve been doing it wrong. Take a guy on this year’s ballot: Jimmy Rollins. Rollins is below my imaginary line. He’s not far below, but with 47.6 WAR and 40.1 JAWS and a 95 OPS+, along with various other stats, he’s just not quite there. By my measurements, I have him below numerous infielders who are not in the Hall of Fame, such as Whitaker and Bobby Grich and Graig Nettles and Ken Boyer and even his old teammate Chase Utley.

Is that the right way to look at it? I’m just not sure. Because Jimmy Rollins did everything well, he hit and had some power, he stole bases and he won Gold Gloves. He was an MVP. He was a leader. He has almost 2,500 hits. He was a credit to the game. From the cues the Hall of Fame has given, Jimmy Rollins is EXACTLY the kind of guy they want to be elected.

Knowing that, should I vote yes on him even if he’s below my line?

For what it's worth, I think trying to anticipate the VC committee, while maybe admirable in theory (why not vote someone in now who's going to get in anyway down the road, possibly after he's dead?), would be a bad way to put together a BBWAA ballot.

Isn’t there a thread for this?

But it's a thing I learned about in baseball this week.

Oh I’m sorry, I thought it was a thread by someone new getting into baseball. Monologue away!

Well, that escalated quickly.

Gyac, you posted a Will Clark clip; I posted about Will Clark. Thermo posted something pertaining to what I posted, I responded, etc. I think that's how ILX works. But by all means, outline some guidelines for posting in this thread and I promise I'll comply.

I don’t give a shit about the HoF. I don’t post in that thread for a reason; stats wanking and that kind of shit bores me to death. People who like that aspect of the game, fill your boots. It personally is the worst aspect of the sport for me.

I think It's magical that you've discovered Will Clark--way to go!

(More the kind of thing you're looking for?)

I think it’s ok for me to comment upon the most joyless aspect of the sport in my own thread.

for what it's worth gotta admit I also avoid all the bwar+ etc etc stuff wrt baseball as well and thought today's posts about mcgriff's hof credentials were misplaced in this thread
xp

I only brought up McGriff in connection to Will Clark. I like this thread, and I chipped in early with some classic-game suggestions, but if this is a strict no-stats/no-HOF zone--and you're not supposed to follow posts wherever they lead--sorry, to me that's just a weird version of what baseball is (and a rather personalized version of how ILX works), and I promise I'll keep clear.

That’s more than ok and I’m sorry for being harsh, it is just as I said a really awful part of the game for me and I avoid the related threads for that reason - but I have very much appreciated your enthusiasm and other contributions here even though we do disagree on a ton of things in baseball as you know!

This is one of my earliest baseball memories--the fake "intentional walk" in the 1972 Series. The A's of that era were an immensely entertaining team.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nR0jGrfQCu4

I know I've told my "I helped Will Clark make a putout" story on ILX before but it's been years, so: I went to Mississippi State when Clark, Rafael Palmeiro, Jeff Brantley and Bobby Thigpen were the big stars on the team. In 1985, I was at a home game sitting in the shallow right bleachers not too far past first base. Opposing hitter drives one to the left-center gap, and for some reason I follow the hitter instead of the ball, where he doesn't even come close to the bag rounding first on the way to the standup double. Play is over and everyone's like "welp" and I can't believe nobody caught what happened. I yell "he missed the bag!!! He didn't touch first!!!" and everyone near me in the bleachers turns to look at me. I yell it again, "He didn't touch the bag!!!" Everyone around me starts yelling it too, "he miss the bag, he missed the bag." Pitcher's got the ball but the next batter isn't quite in the box yet. Clark looks over at Ron Polk, the head coach, and Polk shrugs. 1B umpire is stonefaced. Clark steps over to the base, pitcher does the come-set and throw over and the umpire erupts in a big punchout. Crowd goes wild, Clark gives slight glove-wave to the direction where all the yelling was coming from.

My sense is that he was the John Rocker of his day, but man he could rake.

I love this and I’m so glad you posted this again! Re John Rocker, I think there’s probably a lot of truth to that - WC being a friend of his during the playing days. Now he works for the Giants in some capacity and also does a lot of work for various autism charities (including Autism Speaks, ugh), so possibly he may have become better over the years? But he came across as incredibly cocky and arrogant during the playing years, which I think you’d kind of expect from a guy who could hit like that. Was thinking of the part of Moneyball where they flat out say that a good player is one who doesn’t get in his own head and drag himself down and it helps if he’s pretty stupid too. Clark hasn’t ever come across as stupid but there is definitely a tendency among a lot of players to just keep moving and worry about the rest later, and that seemed to be a big part of his makeup afaict? But I guess if you’re going to homer off Nolan Ryan in your first at bat then you’re probably going to be at least somewhat arrogant.

Actually a quick look through his Twitter account follows- he appears to run his own account going by the amount of replies RTed, it seems a relatively shithead free experience? Mostly players from various sports and the odd weird follow like Kenny G or Spongebob? Compared to, oh, idk, Buster Posey making Ben Shapiro one of his 53 accounts followed!

How did I never hear this story before?!:
https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/detroit/news/brady-feigl-dna-test-inside-edition-minor-league-baseball/#app"> https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/detroit/news/brady-feigl-dna-test-inside-edition-minor-league-baseball/#app

God dammit

Haha, that’s amazing.

Since I’ve been appreciating Brandon Belt this week, about this at bat, and pitcher-batter duels in general:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6FTg1XwLfg

When I started watching the postseason a few months back, this was one of my favourite things to watch early on. Trying to get a guy out who’s clinging to the plate like a flea on the underside of a cat. This one is the current record, with 21 pitches, and it’s brutal. You can feel the pitcher’s frustration. He had Belt on two strikes after three pitches. Belt digs his heels in, fouls off pitch after pitch. Hits the full count and it just keeps going. 14 minutes of this, and it ends with an out. A loss? Any time a single at bat drives a pitcher into the stressful inning zone is a win, and the Giants did go on to win that game. And Belt ended up scoring two runs later.

I was actually at that game in Anaheim. It was the top of the first so my friends and I were grabbing a beer. I several times looked out and said to myself, Belt is still up? It's great to hear the audio of that at bat. The Giants were the visitors but the crowd started getting into it as it lasted about 20 minutes if I remember correctly.

I'm going to go back and read this thread as it seems like there are some good nuggets in here.

A friend told me this story last night. It's a classic.

Another McCarthy, Mike, the former head of MSG Network and the new GM of Cubs telecasts, this week met with one of his TV analysts, former Cubs first baseman Mark Grace. Grace told him this story:

Circa 1991, the Cubs were in Cincinnati, Rick Sutcliffe pitching for Chicago. Paul O’Neill, then with the Reds, smashed a long home run. In Cincy, home-team homers were followed by fireworks, thus Boom! Bang! Flash! Boom!

The next batter, Eric Davis, blasted one, too. Boom! Bang! Flash! Boom!

Out of the dugout walked pitching coach Billy Connors. As he neared the mound, Sutcliffe protested, hollering to Connors to turn around. He continued to plead with Connors that he has it under control, not to yank him.

When Connors reached the mound, he soothed Sutcliffe with, “I’m not taking you out, Rick. I just wanna give that fireworks guy a chance to reload.”

https://nypost.com/2020/02/27/rick-sutcliffe-once-pitched-himself-into-fireworks-hilarity/

hahahaha

xp incredible!

gyac I think it’s cool that you got onto the 2010s Giants because they were such a weird frickin outlier (band of misfits indeed) and I get the sense that those teams don’t get the same “respect” as even like the ‘11 cardinals or something. I don’t really care about that respect stuff though, I’m more of a Kruk and Kuip / Jon Miller fan than a Giants fan, anyway.

Don't forget about David Braxton Flemming. Giants fans are spoiled as they are some of the best broadcasters in the business.

They are a weird crew and I do love the broadcasters a lot. “Grab some pine, meat!” lives in my memory probably forever. Jon Miller obvs classic. Colour commentary isn’t really a thing this side of the Atlantic, so I was first surprised and then delighted by it. I was watching an old Dodgers game that had Vin Scully commentating on and he started off the game remarking that it was “Hispanic Heritage Day”. The Dodgers had started with Ricky Nolasco on the mound. The game went badly for him and he coughed up several runs and Don Mattingly came out to take the ball from him. Vin remarked “Don Mattingly has decided, Hispanic Heritage Day or not, it is time to get Ricky Nolasco out of there.”

I’ve never heard anything like the commentary in my life. It’s great.

Jon Miller is phenomenal. So gentle.

yes. he made joe morgan endurable. no mean feat.

https://i.postimg.cc/L6Nbvw8P/759-C83-D6-0-E0-C-49-DB-9861-9-C4-FD167643-D.png