The incredible austerity of D&D in 1980

sorry i mean left out of the ose adv. fantasy books vs. the ose basic fantasy books (which are direct copies of b/x, with heavy editing)

also it's CLASSIC fantasy not basic gah. i've avoided those books mostly because i'm happy to just play 1e with all of its idiosyncracy and stupidity. that's what i grew up with, so i'm comfortable with it. the adventures seem real good, though, so maybe i should grab them. plus i've been picking up the original adventures reincarnated books, and while the dnd ones (lost city, isle of dread, into the unknown / keep on the borderlands) ones have 5e conversions they don't have 1e conversions! so might be easier to run with ose than 1e?

Yeah, I ordered mine from exalted funeral.
It’s def less complicated than AD&D, but also, I feel weird whenever subclasses make the vanilla class obsolete. I think if our current game ends, I’ll offer the players sone of the advanced classes but maybe not all. I hate elves, for example, i dislike because of the elvish stereotype rather than anything mechanical. Also dislike bards and paladins. Otoh I like illusionists and assassins.

Maybe I should just stick to B/x.

yeah i personally like race-as-class. also the classic critique of unearthed arcana (then and now) is that the new class abilities and subclasses (particularly barbarian and cavalier) are unbalancingly powerful. not sure if the other 1e subclasses got the same reaction

ian let's stick to B/x plz, lol

OK.
Sadly the list of games I have and want to play is LONG so someday your teleportation crystals might just put you in Cyberpunk 2020 or Harn.

haha fair

B/X are the red and blue box sets from '83, correct? I don't think I ever played those.

First D&D memories were AD&D 1st edition. When my parents expressed concerns that D&D = Satan, my mind instantly flashed to the cover of that Player's Handbook.

Jordan, that book is actually very good; not cloying at all

PBKR, yes. When I started playing (mid nineties?) both Ad&d second edition and basic d&d were still in print and we sort of mixed and matched them without thinking shot consistency or consequences. I like the B/X edition because the rules are very light and flexible. None of the AD&D shit like weapon speed, weapon type vs armor modifiers, the aforementioned spell components. Elves, dwarves and halflings were classes. Somr differences in character progression, but say less bookkeeping and with the lack of hard rules meant there was minimal rules-lawyering. “Rulings not rules.”

The race-as-class kind of blows my mind. I only have the vaguest of memories of "AD&D shit like weapon speed, weapon type vs armor modifiers, the aforementioned spell components." But I was super-young, like 8? when I started because a friend had an older brother and I think he handled a lot of that.

"Rulings not rules."

Ha, that whole OSR movement is really interesting. I'm on an rpg Discord server that has been discussing that topic a bit and I learned just recently that there is a "conservative" faction in the OSR movement that views early D&D with an almost fascistic nostalgia. It just so happens that period had fewer POC/LGTBQ+ people in rpgs. But the efforts to determine how those early 1974-75 games were played are fascinating.

Have you ever seen World of Dungeons?

There are some really shitty OSR scene dudes. But I’m thankful for people who clarified and reIssued the original rules because as written, Ad&d especially, is so disorganized.

I hope everyone itt has read this incredible book that fills in all the pre-70's pieces of the picture:

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/15784870-playing-at-the-world

(as well as the 70s of course)

Yes. I didn't need him to go back as far as chess, but great book.

World of Dungeons:

http://www.onesevendesign.com/dw/world_of_dungeons_1979_bw.pdf

It's a three page rpg that uses a super-light version of the core mechanic from Apocalypse World (probably the most influential non-D&D rpg from the last 20 years) to evoke a 1976 D&D experience. sleeve, I think you are old enough for the font on that character sheet to give you shivers.

oh yes. is there a name for that font now?

my 1976 experience was actually Tunnels & Trolls, another "stripped down" simpler version. one of the earliest if not the earliest imitators.

pretty sure I have told this story before, but the guy (my age) who introduced me to it went on to invent Age Of Empires

he was also a big Yes fan

He's gotta be doing well.

I was introduced to D&D by M3liss@ M@cC@rthy's husband.

Font = Quentin EF, apparently

Sleeve, I loved Playing At The World; his other books are good too.

the first 'monster' i encountered, 40 years ago whilst playing ad&d, was a nixie

which was not accepted by the current spelling bee, so fuck them

ian, did you read The Elusive Shift? I want to read that one.

I'm on some OSR/NSR discords and the devotion to B/X and OD&D is so weird to me.

I'm losing my edge to the art-school Brooklynites with descending armor class and borrowed nostalgia for the unremembered Eighties

my 1976 experience was actually Tunnels & Trolls, another "stripped down" simpler version. one of the earliest if not the earliest imitators.

I loved the company's DIY aesthetic and especially its wealth of solo adventures. However, the game mechanics, especially for combat, left a lot to be desired. You ended up rolling a ton of dice and once someone started bleeding the outcome was pretty much preordained.

I liked The Fantasy Trip, which was Steve Jackson's first, pre-GURPS foray into role-playing.

I run a B/X D&D game and I like it because there are fewer rule for players to learn and for DMs to remember. I also prefer a lower power level than the modern D&D situation where you start as already pretty damn powerful. I like the roll under ability score for resolving skill checks; i like the reaction table; i like the limited class selection. Are you a brooklyn hipster PBKR?

that said I'd happily PLAY AD&D or 2nd edition, and I have played 5e, but I'm not really interested in running them.
I'm not married to B/X but I'm more inclined to play a different game altogether than a different variant of D&D; I don't wanna have to learn all that that shit. I could be talked into trying to run AD&D but only if I restricted class and race options probably.

I also want to try GURPS but it’s too much to learn and would require my players buying books etc to do properly. But I love some of the sourcebooks for general ideas and historical stuff.

yeah idgi either

i mean, you’re a poster on a message board called “i love music” where saying something like “og 70s post punk has a certain vibe which modern groups struggle to capture” would be completely uncontroversial

1e d&d and ad&d books have a certain charm plus they’re what i grew up playing. if you don’t like idiosyncracy and insist on consistency OSE cleans up thise rules, but i just want to play with my old toys, who cares?
i’m not against new games, have had lots of fun lately running mutant crawl classics, dungeon crawl classics, vaults of vaarn, mork borg, into the odd, troika etc, and we’re gearing up to run island of ixx soon

but if i’m going to run a game i want some basic ass rules that don’t get in anyone’s way, not some narrativist meta-game obscenity* like blades in the dark or “balanced” “built-for-gamers” trash like 5e

* that said i did buy the new licensed robotech game from harmony gold … very new school narrativist with interesting teamwork mechanics. i’m intrigued by the idea that a minmei type, a fleet technician and a veritech pilot can contribute equally during a combat. plus macross rules

I always wanted to come up with an adventure as cool as this one looked. I don't think I ever succeeded.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Vxq3m4RraSg/TvU8CzHP-dI/AAAAAAAAA68/jbNZX_F9Cfc/s640/ADD_Players_Handbook_Old_p1.jpg

I feel like i should be the target audience for blades in the dark - I love the crime genre, I like city-based adventures. But I don’t think I would be great at running it; I don’t have experience with any of these new school games. I like the danger and feel of the unknown; the idea of discussing the potential outcomes before each due roll seems like it would kill a lot of that for me.

i mean, you do that already in OSR!

“i’m going to jump across the chasm!”
“the one that drops 20 feet into a river of lava filled with obsidian crocogolems? ok, show me on the map how much running start you give yourself”
“uhh is there anywhere i can attach my grapple hook to swing across?”
“not that you can see, but …” etc

in blades in the dark (and fyi i actually did a scum & villainy campaign, not blades in the dark proper) it seems like they try to offload a lot of that thinking onto players, with lots of extra mini rules to modify the difficulty favorably (players assist each other, push themselves to the limit, assume extra risk, use hidden talents etc)

the problem is that most players are just not that creative, and you end up with “i swing the grapple, while trying really hard” or “i think really hard about my character’s main quest and jump the chasm with extra motivation” or “i help him look for somewhere to put the grapple”

there are so many new games nowadays where it’s clear the authors put so much galaxy brainpower into reinventing the wheel, so as “to give players and gms tools for exciting roleplaying”

imo a much better approach is to make a super detailed map with sick erol otus style art and stuff it with challenging traps and motivated npcs and cool monsters. that’s a toolbox!

that strategy plus hilarious critical hit tables for anything and everything is pretty much how goodman games got where they are

calling that “obscenity” when it sounds like it’s just not for you is a bit too close to the grody “anti-SJW” grognarndianism I recall being present in the OSR world not all that long ago for me so mb modulate your rhetoric idk

uhhh ok

ty for new DN

seems like you’re projecting. i’m talking about rulesets, i have no sympathy toward the attitudes you’re describing and yes i understand why some ppl think some rpg content from the 70s and 80s is objectionable (large swathes of culture from the 70s and 80s contain objectionable, so makes sense)

on the other hand i’m not super inclined to take advice on modulating my rhetroic from one of ilx’s premier acab / slicey boi memes / burn the suburbs left wing edgelords

so to recap: i like old games better than new ones and i used the word “obscenity”, so i’m basicslly the fash

fuck off, man

Oh uhh yikes. It seemed to me that tlg’s obscenity comment was not meant as anything more than voicing an opinion. No one itt is against anyone having fun with whatever games they want, I mean right? Even though pbkr doesn’t get the appeal of old rules sets no one is accusing him of harassment or shit stirring or whatever.

Games are cool, let’s all just enjoy what we want? While still reserving the right to voice whatever opinion we may have about any game or rules set; otoh nu-ilx is weird and I do not understand y’all resllt

Shit is pbkr even a him I’m sorry for assuming

he is, I personally mailed him a Michael Hurley LP!

I had to try to explain call of Cthulhu to my therapist this past week. Cuz our group got back together after a long break and I mentioned his nice it was. She did not know about RPGs

lol

the heated debate re: mechanics is a little baffling to me tbh, there's always been a spectrum from simple to complex

I get how all the weird fucked up archaic elements of the old school need revision but it seems like a separate issue from arguing abt whether to do under or over rolls

My problems w modern d&d aren’t really with the mechanics. It’s a pretty easy to learn and teach game and it’s fun to play. But.. I don’t like the implied setting much, the tone is just not really what I would want as a default for my game. With the cat people and the dragon people, pervasive magic etc. I have a strong preference for magic being mysterious and relatively rare.

... cat people? weird.

once I got into Rolemaster/MERP that was all I played until my recent revival, so I have been out of the loop

I took a huge break from ages like 15-35.

Yikes, that escalated.

I am not a Brooklyn hipster, maybe a Long Island hipster but prob too old/not hip.

My cheeky osr comments/humor came from me being on some Brooklyn OSR discords where ppl seem a little younger than me (these ppl are great) and then ppl on the Dolmenwood discord reacting to the announcement this week like race + class instead of race is class is end times. You can take my THAC0 from my cold, dead hands (whatever). It's a little much, especially coming from people who often didn't play those games the first time around.

I actually played D&D (OSE, basically B/X) for the first time since 1992 maybe two weeks ago. We played Winter's Daughter (great Dolmenwood adventure) and we got through the entire adventure with zero combat and almost no rolls and it was atmospheric and pretty good. I get the attraction. Maybe I just have a short attention span and like trying different games. Also, acting like the first rpg is the best and to just ignore any innovation in design seems really weird to me.

Narrative games imo are all about thinking meta and like a director instead of like an actor. It's fun, like exercising another muscle.

Games are cool, let’s all just enjoy what we want?

^^^
This, my comments were basically tongue-in-cheek.

PS. ian, GURPS is in my top 3 most played rpgs (Rolemaster and TSR Marvel Superheroes are the others) and I still have a big box of supplements in my garage. Unfortunately, it's the polar opposite of what I want to play now which is stuff that is rules lite. Don't play GURPS if you want to avoid players just deciding what they want to do based on stuff written on their sheet instead of imagining themselves in the situation.

Yeah, I don’t think Gurps is a system I’d want to run, but would like to play sometime. But realistically that will never happen so i just enjoy reading the sourcebooks - I mean… there’s a Book of the New Sun supplement! And the historical ones I’ve read have just been weirdly satisfying to read. It’s like getting a high school-level refresher course on Norman England, or the Roman Empire or whatever.

As far as innovations in game design… I’ll admit my tastes lean traditional. I play games other than old school d&d; and I wouldn’t say it’s the best game for all situations. It’s the best d&d for me to evoke the specific feeling I had reading and playing the game as a kid. Worth maybe noting that we use ascending armor class because it’s just easier. I’m not beholden to old mechanisms for their own sake, but because they delivers an experience that is extremely nostalgic for me.

But I also love call of Cthulhu and play the most current edition — admittedly mostly the same game it’s always been but with a few updates that gives players more control over certain outcomes.

I hadn't heard of a new D&D norm with 'cat people' everywhere.

I played RPGs long, long ago, and I can state a long-standing view that 'elaborate rules' are generally produced for their own sake, ie: because people like writing and reading about elaborate additional rules, and buying and looking at the attractive extra books that contain them (I have THE WILDERNESS SURVIVAL GUIDE in a cupboard here - loved the idea of the book, but never 'played' it in any way), rather than because they are necessary for any actual gameplay.