World Series 2022 -- Houston Astros vs Philadelphia Phillies

i agree with gyac. Dusty’s sitting on the deepest pen in baseball, possibly the deepest pen in World Series history. everything was clicking for Verlander through three, and then all of a sudden it wasn’t, and he’s lucky the Phils only got 3. now you’ve got the top of the order coming back for the dreaded third time. i think it’s pretty cut and dried. you’re trying to win the World Series not a popularity contest.

It's a seven-game series--I'm inclined to wait and see. Verlander gave up a double, and that tied the game, then he got the next two outs. Tucker's second HR made it 5-0 with one out in the third; should Thomson have pulled Nola then? He didn't, Nola finished the inning, got through the 4th without a run, and got the first out in the 5th. So it's forgotten.

what the Phillies did or didn’t do is irrelevant. you’re Dusty Baker and you’ve got the greatest bullpen ever assembled, your starter is handing out bases like they’re halloween candy and they haven’t even been around the order twice yet. in the 4th Verlander gave up three singles, a double and a walk. he just didn’t have it anymore. he started the fifth by surrendering a double. he then walked Schwarber. and STILL he stays in the game. crazy.

I mean this is just going by the book. you’re the one arguing in favour of an unorthodox “trust the guy” approach clemenza but usually people argue that when the by-the-book outcome DIDN’T come to pass. this time it did.

a harder decision would have been - this is the third time through the order but verlander’s only given up, say, a solo homer and a walk. do you leave him in, 5-1 in the fifth? probably.

Disagree with some of your characterizations there...but will step away from yet another epic argument.

Sheehan:

Verlander retired the first ten batters of last night’s game. Right when I went to look up my note speculating on the possibility of a postseason no-hitter this year, one tied to Verlander, Rhys Hoskins lined a single to center. The next batter, J.T. Realmuto, hit a soft liner back to the mound, hitting Verlander right in the glove. Verlander, though, looking over to first for a possible double play -- he had Hoskins dead to rights off first base -- didn’t secure the ball. It popped out of his glove, and instead of two outs on a 1-3, the Astros got just one. It wasn’t an error, wasn’t an egregious bad play, but anyone who watched the ’06 Series felt the ghosts at that moment.

Maybe it wasn’t the supernatural, but you can divide Verlander’s night neatly before and after that play.

Before: 12 batters, 11 outs, one single, four strikeouts, no runs

After: 11 batters, four outs, three doubles, two singles, two walks, five runs

I predicted Verlander would go exactly 23 batters, but not like this.

Verlander threw so many bad breaking balls: a slider down and in, within the zone, to Harper for a single; a hanger to Alec Bohm for a double, another to J.T. Realmuto for the same. I didn’t understand his need to keep going to the breaking stuff. We’ve talked about this a lot this month: The Phillies hit breaking stuff and they don’t hit good velocity. Every time Verlander threw a breaking ball rather than a 97-mph fastball, he was giving the Phillies a gift. Verlander’s night was a failure of approach and a failure of execution.

I love the way baseball history connects across decades: 1) Realmuto's HR the first extra-inning HR by a catcher since Carlton Fisk in Game 6; 2) the first extra-inning walk-off HR to win a G1 since Dusty Rhodes (the other famous guy from the '54 WS).

I’m wondering who starts game 3 for the Phils. Seems weird to burn Suarez for 0.2 innings.

They're saying he can still go since he only threw 11 pitches

It wasn't a walkoff HR though clem. First extra inning HR by a catcher since Fisk (and I think just the fourth of all time) is fun and interesting though.

Re:Verlander, in G7 of the 2003 ALCS (the Pedro-Grady Little game), Torre pulled Clemens in the fourth inning. There was speculation at the time that he was retiring and it was his final game. Didn't matter to Torre, Clemens was done. Bochy won three championships with the Giants by not being sentimental with his SP's. He had former CY winners like Zito, Peavy, and Lincecum and used a quick hook with them, reassigned them to the bullpen, whatever it took to win.

You're right, it wasn't...they mentioned first-since-Dusty Rhodes last night; I must have botched the factoid.

Not to reopen this, but I would differentiate between a G7 and a G1.

Just extra-inning HR in G1, not a walk-off:

Extra-inning HR in Game 1 of a World Series:

1946, Rudy York vs. Cardinals
1954, Dusty Rhodes vs. Indians
2022, JT Realmuto vs. Astros

— Jayson Stark (@jaysonst) October 29, 2022

fantastic bottom of the ninth in G1.

I hate these in-game dugout interviews.

Houston's turn to get Dusted in the playoffs. They might rip off 4 games in a row and make it go away, but then again maybe not.

I think I have seen this movie before

Bee, could’ve used some of your play by play just now. Wild top of the 8th

G1- 4:34
G2- 3:18

So according to ESPN, Syndergaard will be starting (opening?) tomorrow.

Really wanted a game tonight as a diversion from you-know-what. Disappointing.

halloween? CUPE strike? elon musk? the certainty of death? lotta directions we could go here tbh

The first and most obvious, although "the certainty of death" is also a preoccupation.

fair <3

My mom was bummed. She said she waited in her car near the Citizens Bank parking lot in light rain until the call, then was able to beat the traffic back home, albeit in the forecast heavy rainy. Back tomorrow!

your mom is smooth

and i mean that in a v. respectful way

She's a trooper. Keeps score and everything.

Just casually reminding everyone it’s ok to hate Justin Verlander because he plays golf with Trump.

btw Bee Ok you should check the what are you reading thread as I am reading books about the WS winning giants dynasty atm and you might find some posts there of interest to you

Considerate of Castellanos to inform everyone that there is one out.

Woop

thanks Phillies guess I can watch basketball tonight

how, in the world series, do you leave a guy in long enough to give up five homers

if your bullpen sucks

I don't get that at all. I don't want to re-open the Verlander game, but to me, there's a difference between staying with a presumptive Cy Young winner/HOF pitcher at home with a 5-run lead, and leaving Lance McCullers in there to get pummeled on the road. It's like you've given up on the game in the third inning.

so far in this series the starters have allowed 23 runs and the relievers have allowed 2

Leaving a SP in the game to give up five homers is something that doesn't even happen with last place teams in July. How did it happen in G3 of the WS? Were the Astros suffering from some kind of rain-induced hangover?

Nobody was arguing that Verlander should have been taken off when they were 5-0 up, the bewildering thing was leaving him in after he coughed up three runs in the 4th, he then allowed two more in the 5th to tie the game. Which they then lost.

Dusty Baker what are your pitching decisions

All those runs were home runs tho, right? I tuned in part way through but it didn’t look like he was getting into constant jams and walking people or anything.

yeah the 3rd and 4th he was three up three down. the other innings he only gave up a walk and a hit (apart from the homers lol)

it did seem like he was (basically) in control. what you may be able to ding baker for is using mccullers in the first place, who relies on breaking balls. philly, as we have seen, enjoys that stuff. javier, as fine a starter as the astros have imo, with an absolutely wicked fastball, may not even pitch until game 6. if there is a game 6.

interesting that dusty is apparently going with javier tonight rather than verlander on normal rest

i’m for it

btw Bee Ok you should check the what are you reading thread as I am reading books about the WS winning giants dynasty atm and you might find some posts there of interest to you

― after several days on “the milk,” (gyac)

Thanks for pointing this out, I will go and find this thread.

I just don't think Dusty Baker is going to win it all at this point. I witness his breakdown in 2002 tho not sure there was anything else he could have done. In 2012 his Reds team had the Giants on the ropes and he didn't manage it well at all, as they only needed one more win and never got it. Giants got past those Reds and then the Cards and then they went on to sweep the Tigers.

I suffered through years of Bobby Cox, some managers just have a hurdle they can't get over (tbf, Bobby did get over once).

tbf i think a large part of being a good manager has less to do with particular bullpen deployments than keeping a bunch of millionaires happy and focused on playing hard. joe torre was . . . not a great bullpen manager (rip scott proctor's arm) but seemed to be pretty good at managing egos.

that said, managing in the playoffs -- especially now, when there are so many rounds -- is just a very different thing from managing a 162-game season. does andy reid now have a clock coach, just to keep him from doing stupid shit at the ends of halves? maybe dusty needs someone to point out to him that saving his 10-deep bullpen is less important, at this point in the season, than it would be in mid-may

Good points, I didn't think Bruce Bochy would be good in the playoffs but he always managed it so different from the 162. It was night and day, miss that guy but he even drove me crazy with his veterans deserve to play first mentality during the regular season. The front office in 2010 had to get rid of Molina before Botchy would play Posey in 2010 when he was called up.

nola’s good huh

Braves generally had an Achilles heel that the back of the bullpen was often subpar compared to the rest of the roster.

Didn't realize till last night that Pena's already 25. Late start for a rookie (for the obvious reason of Correa) that will probably come into play when he hits the free agent market down the road.

Like anything pertaining to old media, I doubt Sports Illustrated's Sportsperson of the Year is nearly as newsworthy as it was 20 years ago. (1998, McGwire and Sosa; 2001, Johnson and Schilling. Three of the four are pariahs now.) Still, I'd love to see Dusty Baker win it this year. Wasn't sure if they've ever given it to a coach, but I checked and they have, at least three times: John Wooden in 1972, Dean Smith in 1997, and Pat Summitt and Mike Krzyzewski in 2011. (They seem to have a thing about college basketball coaches.) If they do go with baseball, I suppose it'd be Judge; if the Yankees had won, for sure it's be Judge. I don't know if there is an obvious winner from some other sport this year.

Totally forgot that it was Dusty Baker's son who almost got trampled at home in 2003.

https://www.mlb.com/news/darren-baker-celebrates-dad-dusty-s-world-series-victory

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzV7x8WcR4g

That’s literally the first thing I think of when it comes to Baker. I had only recently started watching baseball again and I wondered who the idiot was that let a toddler on the field

J.T. Snow ought to be in the HOF for that.