John Cleese; is he funny?

what gets me in life of brian is the sustained bit about the hilarious absurdity of a trans woman existing

Not defending this in any way, but I don't think any cis person would've considered mocking trans people problematic or offensive prior to the Millennium. So given Life of Brian was made in 1979 this feels historically revisionist.

sounds like the problem is cis people not revisionism

Their humor turned vicious in "The Meaning of Life"

Which bit, specifically? Mr Creosote?

Guess if you were a devout Catholic you wouldn't much like Every Sperm is Sacred.

sounds like the problem is cis people not revisionism

Of course, you are right, Left, and what's wrong now has been wrong for all of time, and we have the benefit of increased awareness as a result of people affected having the confidence to speak out about the hurt that's been caused. But this thread is specifically about whether John Cleese is funny or not, and I don't see how you can judge this based on what he or anyone else thought about trans rights in 1979 as it wasn't on the map then.

Which bit, specifically? Mr Creosote?

Pretty much all of it. It was an exceptionally mean-spirited film. I remember being taken aback when it came out.

it was? on some maps at least

obviously I'd be far more surprised if cleese and his mates knew or cared than otherwise xp

still I don't buy that no one knew it was hurting people - the jokes don't even work as jokes if they didn't know - they knew they'd get away with it is all. in retrospect it's not surprising how apoplectic the british establishment has become over finally experiencing some mild pushback

My extended family, who are all Catholic, if to varying degrees, love the Every Sperm Is Sacred song. Social bonding for Catholics generally involves laughing at all the ridiculous rules we have (and ignore)

Sure, Camaraderie, but you are arguing from the particular to the general here.

There are Jewish people who love the Two Ronnies' "insurance against becoming Jewish" sketch I link to below. I am sure there are others who find it offensive from start to finish:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZzTTICHrAI

speaking only for myself, I only met someone who was transgender for the first time in 2006, and in the years following, made several other friends who were transgender. I knew very little about the community prior to this, partially due to my own (unintentional) bubble, partially because the mainstream media (at least around me) largely ignored them as if transgendered individuals were a fringe novelty and not human beings, so the only exposure I had was the occasional derisive jokes in movies/television. So I too wound up saying some things that I'm now ashamed of, that were hurtful, because of my own unintentional ignorance and also being a naive youth.

that doesn't mean that nobody who made these mean-spirited jokes were aware of the hurtful nature of them, or that knowing what we know now, we shouldn't cast some of this stuff to the ashheap of history, but trans awareness isn't something everybody had not that long ago (some of us still have a ways to go, myself included).

does anyone still watch Fawlty Towers and think John Cleese being an asshole and treating everyone like shit is funny?

He's meant to be a terrible person! The Manuel character, however, has dated pretty badly.

f.hazel- yes, but then I would regard your take on the show as somewhat reductionist.

What Matt #2 says about Manuel is obviously correct.

When did Cleese cease to be funny? Probably the 80s? I can't recall him being funny since then. He's just been relentlessly appearing on talk shows and in the press and doing his tiresome Grumpy Old Man routine. Anyway, he was never funny *on his own*, but as part of an ensemble cast, he was.

Cleese outlines his political philosophy in this 1985 party-political broadcast he made for the SDP, basically sensible-centrist right and left are as bad as each other, smart thoughtful people like me are politically homeless stuff, this seems pretty consistent with his views these days, though maybe he's gone a bit more in the complaining about there being too many non-whites in London these days direction recently

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKp7HDv01hk

I mean, the man did start doing corporate training back in the. . . 70s? 80s? A while ago.

it's interesting that he argues people become political 'extremists' because they are filled with rage and frustration and seek out enemies to direct that rage at, when Cleese himself seems like someone filled with rage and frustration, it's what 90% of his comedy is about, and it's led to him becoming a self-described moderate, feels like he's projecting his own issues.

(didn't Cleese have therapy at some point in the 80s, and himself attribute the drop off in quality in his work to the fact that he was now better adjusted and less angry?)

Cleese going from the SDP to GB news is more evidence that fascism is a political movement of the centre rather than the right (or left)

xxxp

Person who is a dick unsurprisingly good at portraying a character who is a dick.

― Being cheap is expensive (snoball), Sunday, 6 March 2022 12:28 (seven months ago)

I found him pretty funny as an addled romantic lead in A Fish Called Wanda but I might be the only defender of that one these days; he's at his best when performing silly shit like stripping while reciting Russian.

He's meant to be a terrible person!

Yeah, but the show is meant to be a comedy. It isn't funny.

answer to thread question still out of reach

Someone upthread said it best. Cleese alone = generally not funny. Cleese as part of the Pythons = funny.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_7DMk3oeOE

Me saying that the transphobia in Life Of Brian gets me angry does not equate to historical revisionism (I said nothing about thinking it's atypical for its time) nor does it have anything to do with whether I think Cleese is funny or not. Don't think my expressing an emotional reaction merits all this laywering tbh

Fwiw tho when I was in middle school I said something homophobic and my dad (who also introduced me to Monty Python) sat me down and gave me a talk about why bigotry is wrong that did indeed include trans people. I am aware that is not particularly common but still, maybe let's hold off on sweeping statements like "I don't think any cis person would've considered mocking trans people problematic or offensive prior to the Millennium."

Good thing nobody said that then

I don't think trans people were a complete unknown in the 70s. Jan Morris had a bestselling memoir about her transitioning for a start.

Even in 1970, when I was 15 and resources like wikipedia were a utopian pipedream, I knew who Christine Jorgensen was.

I always thought all the left stuff in Python was the result of them(Terry Jones especially) encountering it at university, and the various Trot splinters that were going on, esp by the 70s

Christine Jorgenson was referenced a number of times on 70s Match Games.

"does anyone still watch Fawlty Towers and think John Cleese being an asshole and treating everyone like shit is funny?"

yes

I don't think trans people were a complete unknown in the 70s. Jan Morris had a bestselling memoir about her transitioning for a start.

― Zelda Zonk, Monday, October 10, 2022 11:50 PM (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink

And Michael Palin did an excellent profile of Morris for the BBC about a decade ago, which included a sensitive discussion of her transition. He at least seems not to have curdled in his views in the way Cleese has.

Good thing nobody said that then

It's a literal quote from upthread dude.

Not has Idle. Was reading an interview with him yesterday.

https://www.theguardian.com/culture/2022/oct/03/i-didnt-cry-until-i-knew-i-was-going-to-live-monty-pythons-eric-idle-on-surviving-pancreatic-cancer?

"What does he think when he hears Cleese claiming that comedians are no longer free to make jokes without fear of being cancelled? “He’s who he is now. The thing I try to remember is the good times when we were young and funny. And we are no longer those people or speaking to today’s generation. We’re old farts. We should be left to go quietly to bed and watch the telly.” He giggles.

xp

Anyway, soref otm (haven't watched the video). Whenever someone says "free speech" that's the key to this. Plus a fear of what young people are going to do.

If they can drown a statue today..

It's a literal quote from upthread dude.

― Daniel_Rf, Tuesday, October 11, 2022 3:40 AM bookmarkflaglink

Apologies, I somehow missed Grandpoint Genie's post entirely. I'm sorry about the rude response

Understood Neanderthal, can understand how it would be galling if you read that part as me responding to you.

idle used to come across and the biggest weasel of the lot but somehow in his old age I find him a lot more sincere (than cleese anyway); Palin has always struck me a lovely man.

Yes, never thought I would favor Idle over Cleese but the world has turned upside down in many respects since a decade ago.

last two posts otm

His brains have curdled though

If I create something that becomes valuable and successful why should Jeremy Corbyn steal it and run it. That's NOT socialism, that's communism. He could take over PYTHON.... https://t.co/n1vQbxpMww

— Eric Idle (@EricIdle) November 27, 2019

Yeah, nm, I hate them both.

Neil Innes to thread.

^ was gonna say, Idle was a total dick to Neil Innes

Yes, let's not kid ourselves, Idle was always a dick and still is. Palin and Jones were the nice guys and Chapman was drunk.

I see this hasn't been mentioned yet:

https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/tv/news/miriam-margolyes-john-cleese-younger-b1916456.html

John Cleese is set to revive his classic 1970s comedy Fawlty Towers.

In a shock move that will likely divide fans of the original, Cleese will write and star in the show alongside his daughter Camilla Cleese. Matthew George (Wind River, A Private War), plus Rob Reiner, Michele Reiner and Derrick Rossi are executive producing the series for Castle Rock Television, which is developing the project.

The new Fawlty Towers is set to explore how Cleese’s cynical, over-the-top and misanthropic Basil Fawlty navigates the modern world. With plot details largely under wraps, the series will explore the relationship between Basil and a daughter he has just discovered he had, as the two tempt fate, and team up to run a boutique hotel.

oof that’s gonna be bad

He is currently making a documentary about cancel culture for Channel 4 and plans to host a show for right-leaning UK network GB News that will champion free speech.

a daughter he has just discovered he had

This shows such a lack of understanding of the character of Basil Fawlty that it surely proves Connie Booth was the creative force behind the original series.

it surely reaffirms the long-proven fact that etc

Well, yes.