pitchfork is dumb (#34985859340293849494 in a series.)

pre-chorus not middle 8, the “it’s driving me out of my mind” part

At the time I'd never heard beats that hard in a pop crossover outside a Janet single.

That's why songs like "Poison" and "Pony" have weathered the passage of time so well. No matter what they're about, they hit hard.

"kool thing" having a public enemy connection makes it worth a mention.

with some distance i think charles and eddie's "would i lie to you" should replace "what's up." just one girl's opinion

I don’t think “Pony” is on there either? Like I understand pulling the limpdick whiteboy indie canon because that was always insanely overrated, but like pulling BBD and Ginuwine and (I think) Montell Jordan to do the nah Drake meme but smiling for Celine Dion and Garth Brooks is ???

"pony" is in fact at no. 26

"this is how we do it" was omitted in favor of "this is how we walk on the moon" i assume, could only handle one

I think “These Are Days” is a much better “vibe” song than “What’s Up”, but I know no one really likes the 10k Maniacs now.

With every notable omission I guess there’s some sort of political or gossipy reason for it, so I guess “Poison” was considered a touch too misogynistic.

“Mote” or “Dirty Boots” over either of the songs on the list afaic

Yeah "Mote" would be my second pick for that album.

I do agree "Poison" and that beat were classic btw. I don't deny the importance of "Believe" but I hated it and don't have a reason to be objective at this point; that it influenced loads of other music to also sound like shit doesn't earn it points afaic.

I’m going to come out and say that the way the media has seemingly totally turned on Thurston (because he cheated on Kim? because he’s an asshole? both? i can never get a good handle on it?) is really surprising to me. That the cheating is often mentioned as the first thing gives me heavy puritanical vibes that i don’t like.

I don't get it either, but has it really affected SY's rep so much as it's raised Gordon's solo profile?

Both "Poison" and "Pony" made the list. The former ranked lower than in 2010, and the latter ranked higher.

123.
Bell Biv DeVoe: “Poison” (1990)
Before “Poison” rocketed them to superstardom, Ricky Bell, Michael Bivins, and Ronnie DeVoe were pretty much only known as “the other guys in New Edition.” That gave them the freedom to try out a risky new sound, a groundbreaking blend of R&B and hip-hop that framed the group’s vocal harmonies in gritty production. At the time, the casual misogyny of the song’s raps were the clearest sign that these guys were done wooing “Candy Girl”s; thirty years later, it’s hard to find anything smooth about lines like “the low pro ho she’ll be cut like an afro.” But that opening dirty snare roll, now as iconic as “Be My Baby,” still finds a way to fill any wedding or bar mitzvah dance floor, regardless. –Jessica Suarez

lmao

idk that's a decent attempt to say "I love this skeevy jam"

"This Is How We Do It" didn't make the cut, but it wasn't on the 2010 list, either, so it wasn't "pulled."

not to drag this out further, and i don't really know anything about poetry, but Berman never struck me as that "weird" a poet or writer. What I got from him was an almost conversational style, sincerely trying to get something concrete across in his writing while also exploring the things he liked about language or telling jokes or whatever. I think most Silver Jews songs have some distinct emotion or idea they're focused on, though some are more self-consciously clever than others. I get a lot of warmth from him. I think Malkmus shields himself a lot more in his writing, there are a fair number of Pavement songs where the lyrics don't cohere for me, or maybe just a line or two stands out as particularly unguarded (but that's a nice trick in itself when it works). I haven't listened to enough GBV to really have a sense of Pollard as a lyricist, I mostly think of him as having some great lines that make me smile when I hear them, but for the most part the lyrics blend into the songs and I barely remember them.

idk that's a decent attempt to say "I love this skeevy jam"

― Malevolent Arugula (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Saturday, October 1, 2022 10:07 AM (eight minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

wasn’t laughing at the blurb

was laughing at my favorite thing that happens in this thread, being outraged at the omission of songs that made the list

I even double checked to see if it was really not on there and still missed it.

I like when Berman sang, “Never trust a big butt and a smile”

honk if you’re lonely tonight

I also find his evocations of sadness quite rending at times, partly because they are so absurd.

― broccoli rabe thomas (the table is the table), Saturday, October 1, 2022 9:10 AM (four hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

otm re: Pollard

I think Malkmus shields himself a lot more in his writing, there are a fair number of Pavement songs where the lyrics don't cohere for me, or maybe just a line or two stands out as particularly unguarded

Loath as I am to evoke or agree with anything Billy Corgan has ever said, I do recall his clapback at "Range Life" being kinda otm, something about how Pavement were not people who made themselves vulnerable in their music and that no one ever fell in love to a Pavement song, or something to that effect. Though I could maybe see falling in love to "Major Leagues" and maybe "Here," I dunno

"People don’t fall in love to Pavement… they put on Smashing Pumpkins or Hole or Nirvana, because these bands actually mean something to them.”

That's badass

It was nice to give a shout-out to Courtney and kurdt’s bands

Loath as I am to evoke or agree with anything Billy Corgan has ever said, I do recall his clapback at "Range Life" being kinda otm, something about how Pavement were not people who made themselves vulnerable in their music and that no one ever fell in love to a Pavement song, or something to that effect. Though I could maybe see falling in love to "Major Leagues" and maybe "Here," I dunno

― Paul Ponz

I do remember that quote, nodding, and thinking, "This guy is so full of shit." I mean, it depends on how you stress "fell in love TO" a Pavement song. For me, especially as a gay guy, "Type Slowly," "Stop Breathin'" and, yeah, "Major Leagues," among others, helped me figure how to respond TO emotions and the guys I fell in love with: a way to learn an attitude, like Bryan Ferry and Nina Simone had taught me earlier.

Corgan's not stupid. He gets it. He just means, "We sold way more albums than Pavement, but why do they wind up on top ten lists?"

Overall I guess SP is more romantic sounding or whatever. But Pavement has plenty of drivin-around songs.

Malkmus is a fuckin' troubadour; he's way more part of the Jonathan Richman school of crazy-fool-strumming-a-guitar than Corgan, who strikes me, what with his overdubs, etc, as way more of a hermetic type, which makes his criticism hilarious.

I gather it's a jungle classic but I had not heard "Valley of the Shadows" before today and wow that is an amazing song, thanks for bringing it to my attention p4k writers

People fall in love to big, bold, unsarcastic, earnest songs that you hear in public places instead of arch shruggy songs you learn about on college radio or RYM

OTM. Pavement's one of the former.

People fall in love to all kinds of music but I wouldn't especially apply the former set of adjectives to Nirvana or Hole.

I fell in love to Matana Roberts and Christine Duncan.

I’m going to come out and say that the way the media has seemingly totally turned on Thurston (because he cheated on Kim? because he’s an asshole? both? i can never get a good handle on it?) is really surprising to me. That the cheating is often mentioned as the first thing gives me heavy puritanical vibes that i don’t like.

this is a whole thing now (and requires a separate thread) but yeah it's total puritanism cloaking itself in the language of social justice -- I think it's largely very young folks driving this, who will come to a more complicated view of human relations as they have more of them, but I'm pretty hardline about "if you beat your partner that's my business: you are making the world worse. if you cheat on your partner that's none of my business: relationships can be messy." but when the maroon 5 guy got into the blender last week there was a whole "cheating is abuse" thing going around about which I have very negative reactions, coming from a background of experiencing & seeing physical & emotional abuse.

We talked a lot about the Kim/Thurston thing on this thread: Instances where you can't separate the art from the artist. vs. instances where you can.

going back to other p4k things, I really like the review of Older - and I'm lovely to see it get such a nice score - but this sticks out to me

Older’s commercial reception was muted, perhaps befitting an album that dealt with such weighty themes and held itself at such a cool remove from the pop marketplace. “Fastlove” peaked at No. 8 on the Hot 100, “Jesus to a Child” at No. 7, and that was more or less it for Michael, at least in America.

That 'at least in America' is doing an awful lot of work. As I believe ilx has touched on before it was his biggest album here in the UK, he was an incredible commercial force over 96/97. I don't feel that should be overlooked.

With Kim and Thurston, I don't think it's so much Puritanism as 'I thought that guy was a feminist but he's actually just another jerky dude'. His actions busted the image we'd naively built of him, and that can be disappointing for a lot of people.

Back to the music, Tunic and Kool Thing are great songs and deserve to be canon. I can see why people love Mote or Dirty Boots more, but really the best two songs on Goo are Disappearer and Cinderella's Big Score.

Is infidelity anti-feminist?

yes, Michael's popularity remained undiminished in the UK and Europa through the 1990. From Wikipedia:

Older was a huge commercial success, especially in the European markets. In the UK the album was largely anticipated, and debuted at No. 1 with an impressive 281,000 copies, becoming one of the biggest debuts ever in British history (it currently ranks as the 23rd fastest-selling album in the UK). It is also Virgin's fastest-selling album of all time. It became Michael's biggest-selling album in his homeland, achieving over 1.8 million copies sold, and receiving a 6× Platinum certification by the BPI on 5 December 1997. In the UK, it spent a total of 147 weeks inside the top 200, 99 of them on the top 75, and 35 of them on the top 10 (including 23 consecutive weeks). In all, Older currently sits as the 97th best-selling album of all time in the United Kingdom.

I've mentioned the blinkered way popularity and success is weighed in US music media before. It's either hyper-focused on US stats only without considering the outside world (like here) or myopically assuming stats are US-specific when they are in fact global (in the case of Spotify streaming numbers).

xps

You guys gave it fastlove!

The Thurston reaction has strong "dad cheated on mom" energy, almost three decades as the premier hipster/indie couple blown up because he had a midlife crisis like an average upper-middle class white dude.

when I was living in western Massachusetts during the 00s I never heard a single flattering story from people who had an encounter with Thurston.

Makin’ the scene

And when I was living in Western Massachusetts in the late ‘90s-late’00s, I only heard flattering stories from people who encountered Thurston and Kim. Maybe it was the circles I was traveling in, but they were always kind, generous, and patient, frequently performing at a small non-profit community arts center, and donating their time, work, and money to help keep it afloat.

xp

Being from Bethel, CT, I can vouch that Thurston’s background is very hoist toity.

I would encounter his brother Gene every once in a while, he was nice. Although he told me unprompted once that he turned Thurston on to all the cool stuff.

*hoity

I catsat for Coco once.