pitchfork is dumb (#34985859340293849494 in a series.)

Royal Trux

Sadly, they didn’t even make the ‘99 list… pretty crazy oversight, imo

Well I played a bit of their Music Battle game. Apparently, the Marshall Mathers LP is a 90s album.

It would be weird (to me) if Low end up a canonized 2010s band. And repeating myself but: Bonnie Prince Billy is on the songs list

Did "Slack Motherfucker" not make it?

"No One Needs to Know" is a lot better than "Man I Feel Like a Woman" imo. As is Ricochet's "Daddy's Money".

xxpost I was only talking albums. I thought I See a Darkness was indie canon.

maybe he got vote split? I certainly wouldn't pick that album as my one Oldham pick

Modest Mouse = community college vs Pavement = Ivy League

I spent a lot of time in rural parts of michigan and arizona and the pacific northwest so MM feels super familiar to me - dirtbaggy guys who are interesting but probably got made fun of for getting too fancy or acting too smart growing up and have a secret hair metal past before they got into punk that they're sort of ashamed of and if they show up at your party they might kinda be on meth but are still cool but you worry they're going to never leave.

I didn't know anyone who gave off pavement vibes until I was in college

Genuinely curious what Pavement vibes are and what they have to do with the Ivy League. I definitely never went to an Ivy or even a private educational institution but I never thought of them as particularly academic or elite.

CMJ vibes?

Tbh I thought of them as incompetent morons for a long time; it kept me from getting into them.xp

why would you think that?

Oh yeah I get the campus radio association - but the best-known local campus station is connected to a university they used to call "Last Chance U" (my alma mater incidentally). Is campus radio actually associated with more elite schools?xp

Pavement came across as aloof and were lyrically abstract. They would drop references to John Ashbery and whatnot. Maybe too shy and goofy for the Ivy League, though Malkmus looks like he could've been on a rowing team.

xp I don't buy the "ivy league" line, but the sphere of people around college radio definitely were more likely to be into Pavement imo

Bodyguard Soundtrack = professor with tenure

Malkmus went to UVA--def Iva league vibes there

Ivy

college radio embraced both Pavement and MM

Pavement is for the children imo

Or in my experience, rather

joygoat's post very interesting & otm. Never thought to compare them on that basis before but definitely some class stuff going on between the cultural/critical perception of MM & Pavement.

The "lyrically aloof & abstract" thing is interesting, I feel like that comes up with Pavement a lot as a signifier of their supposed ivy league preppy academic image, Malkmus making references to this or that writer, the references always being described as being "sly", etc. While at the same time Isaac Brock's lyrics during the same years were pretty fuckin aloof and knotty and abstract. But when Brock was screaming about getting coated in molasses and getting ripped apart by dogs in outer space or whatever, something about his presentation made ppl think "this guy is scary and nuts" instead of "this guy is an interesting writer". Whereas Malkmus singing very similar lines, many critics were like "what a wry game of signifiers this postmodern lyricist is playing"

ONE WEEK TO GO

Oh sorry I thought this was the Pavement thread lol

Whereas Malkmus singing very similar lines, many critics were like "what a wry game of signifiers this postmodern lyricist is playing"

Only one of'em got a New Yorker review/profile in 1997 where Ashbery got mentioned.

Meanwhile Malkmus was saying, "we're a Fall rip-off band."

But when Brock was screaming about getting coated in molasses and getting ripped apart by dogs in outer space or whatever, something about his presentation made ppl think "this guy is scary and nuts" instead of "this guy is an interesting writer"

I dunno, I think Brock's outlook is scary and nuts and don't see too much similar in their styles

MM:

Here's the man with teeth like God's shoeshine
He sparkles, shimmers, shines
Let's all have another Orange Julius
Thick syrup standing in lines
The malls are the soon-to-be ghost towns
Well, so long, farewell, goodbye

vs
Pavement

Cherish your memorized weakness
Fashioned from a manifesto
Lady, I am no Futurist, I'm my only critic, I
Trolls in the glen are consorting again
The liberals say they don't exist, but I know that they do

Reinforce your literal ass
Hit it on the first or second pass
Frozen images, respected few
Type slowly

"Reinforce your literal ass"

haha, I never knew that was the line

I don't see much aloof in Brock's lyrics there, pretty straightforward

"God's shoeshine" could maybe be aloof, but if you take that apart the image doesn't really mean anything.

"Reinforce your literal ass"

haha, I never knew that was the line

― "Cool ranch dressing!" (morrisp),

he's so good at coming up with these shrugged-off maxims

clunky

I'm on my way to God, don't know
My brain's the burger and my heart's the coal

I'm trying to get my head clear
I push things out through my mouth, I get refilled through my ears
I get refilled through my ears
I get refilled through my ears
I'm on my way to God, don't know or don't care
My brain's the weak heart and my heart's the long stairs

vs not clunky--much more abstract (and yeah kinda Ashbery ish). Don't think Malkmus would have gone for a weak metaphor like that last MM line, which again if you take apart doesn't really mean anything

You better find your way out
You better learn how to run
You better walk away
And leave the angles for the shills
Well, I've been thinking for days
About the means and the ways
That I could hate all I touch
I know you're my lady
But I could trickle, I could flood
A voice coach taught me to sing
He couldn't teach me to love
All the above

Malkmus went to UVA--def Iva league vibes there

So did Dave Matthews

with Matthews I get Ashbery vibes too -- Melvin Ashbury.

but when Malkmus edges into figurative language and isn't all floaty but concrete w/his imagery we get this lovely piece of business

One of us is a cigar stand
And one of us is a lovely blue incandescent guillotine

"The liberals say they don't exist, but I know that they do" is the most Ashberyian line imo; he loved that kind of wtf interruption.

So did Dave Matthews

he's from Cville--don't know that he went to UVA, his dad worked there. . . and if you don't get fratty Ivy League vibes from DMB. . .

Malkmus went to UVA--def Iva league vibes there

So did Dave Matthews

― “uhh”—like, this is an insane oatmeal raisin cookie “uhh” (President Keyes), Thursday, September 29, 2022 11:44 AM (three minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

i couldn't tell if DM went to UVA or was just around the college scene. But him and Malkmus are basically the same age (55/56), wiki sez Matthews moved to the UVA area in 86, which would like up when Malkmus would have been attending and was also a college radio dj

obviously, they would have been moving in different circles a bit but the UVA music scene couldn't have been that huge, seems like they might have reasonably crossed paths...

"The liberals say they don't exist, but I know that they do" is the most Ashberyian line imo; he loved that kind of wtf interruption.

yeah also the misdirection of the narrator knowing that a group of people exists, when the same groups claims they don't is another lovely piece of business you could think about for awhile.

obviously, they would have been moving in different circles a bit but the UVA music scene couldn't have been that huge, seems like they might have reasonably crossed paths...

listened to a podcast awhile ago where I think Bobby N. talked about Dave bringing in his demo tape to sell at Plan 9, where Bob worked. James McNew went there, too (to UVA) and I think was part of Happy Flowers

Again, I think the MM-Pavement divide is fun/humor, but that is the axis on which music often works or doesn't for me.

david berman obviously also went to uva around that time and now i desperately want to know if he ever encountered dave matthews

Still no answer to my DMB question, apparently ILM hates popular music from the 90s when it suits

― broccoli rabe thomas (the table is the table), Thursday, September 29, 2022 6:06 AM (four hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

There's no grand conspiracy here. They like some popular music and dislike other popular music. It's only confusing if you think that certain acts are included only *because* they're popular.

Whoops, I misread "ILM" as "Pitchfork," never mind

rockists 🤝 poptismists
thinking dave matthews sucks

hmm apparently david berman was a fan of dmb and wanted to record with them haha http://tomsugden.github.io/cordsuit//articles/silver-jews-naturally.html

Bob N. once said (of C'ville): "Musically, the Dave Matthews Band is from there, and Bruce Hornsby and the Range. It has its history of total shit acts that succeed in the music industry. I guess Pavement can call it home as much as anywhere else."

why would you think that?

They sounded like they couldn't play. I didn't really get the lyrical wordplay so it seemed like they were yelping and chuckling about nonsense. Now those are the records I like most of theirs.

prob just reiterating a post i made in the dave matthews band bad and hated thread but after getting into phish i revisited dmb... would say dm is a very inconsistent songwriter and should be legally restricted from writing about sex... even then still a really dumb lyricist... but there are some jams... and i still really like the shelved album

Speaking of Phish – Billy Breathes made the '99 Pfork list!