aaron judge needs his own thread

I think Bieber and Bauer both set records during the pandemic season that most people either discount or aren't even aware of.

Got my head around what I wanted to say. I think you're 99% right about league records, with one exception: the A.L. home run record. Even if steroids had never existed, and Bonds and the rest had done what they did, I still think the A.L. HR record would be a big deal because of its association first with Ruth, and then with the fabled/sad Maris/Mantle story. And Judge's stature will, I think, add to that. Otherwise, I agree, no one much cares about league records.

you really think that if it was jose canseco hitting 65 ‘roided home runs for the a’s it would be a different story?

I'm trying to look at this in the absence of steroids, which complicate everything; in such a world, yes, I think the A.L. HR record would still resonate.

I'd extend that to the career record, too; if Mike Trout were to ever approach 714 HR (probably unreachable by now), I think it would be a very big deal.

ruth only hit 708 in the AL, which is among the reasons it makes even less sense to divide career records by league

60+ homers is/was incredibly rare for 100s of years of baseball history except during a brief blip in the late 90s/early 00s (what could've possibly caused that blip?).

it's a very cool achievement, and i find it funny that all of the "baseball can't market its talent" people are all of a sudden grumpy because the person they're marketing is on the yankees

(xpost) Forgot about that...

hey I dislike the Yankees too but if someone on say the Marlins hit 60+ HRs I bet a lot of people wouldn't even hear about it

baseball fans would. random people probably not

well you've answered your own question - it's because it was maris, the fabled mark of 61, another yankee. you know how many people discount bonds (and mcgwire and sosa) - in their minds 61 is still the real mark. plus those other guys weren't yankees so they don't really count lol

absolutely zero to do with 'the AL record'

Totally OTM. It's one thing to not vote Bonds for the HOF because of various reasons, it's another thing to pretend those 60 and 70 HR seasons never existed. Making up a new mystique around the "AL record" gives people a pretext to discount McGwire, Sosa, and co. while getting to witness history in 2022.

I'm trying to look at this in the absence of steroids, which complicate everything; in such a world, yes, I think the A.L. HR record would still resonate

I think this is mixing cause and effect. The record resonates for some because it gives them an excuse to ignore the actual HR record.

If McGwire had hit 59 HR in 1998, ESPN wouldn't have produced documentaries twenty years later about the season when he broke Hack Wilson's hallowed NL record. It was all about Ruth and Maris.

As a kid following baseball just before the steroid era, I never thought of Ruth's or Maris's records as AL records. They were the single-season MLB home-run records.

But what I'm saying is, because of Ruth (mostly) and Maris/Mantle (partially), this is one league record that has lasting meaning that stands outside of steroids, the actual record, everything. As the saying goes, I think we will just have to agree to disagree here.

baseball fans would. random people probably not

― ciderpress, Thursday, September 29, 2022 12:54 PM (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink

yeah that's what I mean. like people I work with who maybe couldn't name a single current baseball player know about this

hey I dislike the Yankees too but if someone on say the Marlins hit 60+ HRs I bet a lot of people wouldn't even hear about it

Was there any major media thirst over the Stanton quest for 60 a few years back? I feel like he sat on his final total of 59 for a couple games at the end of the season too. Most forgetting 50 HR guy this side of Greg Vaughn.

also this has been a real smokescreen for how badly the rest of the yankees lineup has been hitting

I was plugged in enough to know about Stanton but I don't think it got any attention outside of baseball media. Maybe Sportscenter did a segment or two about it. I actually remember thinking "huh, maybe 50 HRs isn't a big deal anymore"

it's still a big deal in that it's a target that doesn't get hit by anyone in the league a lot of years

I think Aaron Judge definitely fits the criteria of the fabled MVP candidate who carries his team to the postseason.

There was a little fanfare for stanton back then but it may have just been on the internet. It felt like way less of an inevitability though - judge reached 59 HR in 14 fewer games.

It was also the 2017 hitting environment where every team had at least 8 players who hit 30 homers so it may have registered as less of an individual achievement.

I do wonder what the narrative would be like if it were a famous player on a big market NL team this year, with the exact same offensive season as judge. Like if it were Harper or Betts reaching 55 with a full month left. They'd have to come up with something.

anyway real asterisk heads know that judge merely tied the *true* AL record of 60. ruth hit 60 in a 154-game season; judge didn't hit his 61st until game 155

I don't actually follow baseball anymore, but I have been following the Judge HR chase since I saw an article about it in the New York Times a few weeks ago. At the time I went to Baseball Reference to look at the single-season leaderboard and was astonished to see the Stanton 59-HR season on there, since I hadn't been aware of it when it happened (and Stanton himself is only vaguely familiar to me).

They'd have to come up with something.

they'd have to be more explicit about steroid-era records not *really* counting. this AL record stuff lets them elide that

Is there a parallel here with Rocket Richard's 50 goals in 50 games? That's been done a number of times now (5? 10?), and Gretzky scored 50 in many fewer. But Rocket Richard--maybe because he was first, and it was science-fiction-like when he did it--is still remembered for 50 in 50. Maybe when my generation of fans is dead, Ruth's 60 will be forgotten. But until then, I don't think so. One thing I'll never forget is the ending of Robert Creamer's chapter on the '27 season, with Ruth yelling "60! Let's see some son of a bitch top that!"

ruth is allowed to prorate his 60 to a current season length so the actual record is 63.12

ruth played before integration, though. don't think he'd have quite as many HRs if he was playing against all of the best pitchers.

this is why the true HR record can only be determined in a giant clean room cube, no wind, identical field for all players, 1,000 games played with all players rotating between teams for perfect equal competition. each "season epoch" will take 8 years

(xpost) That reminds me of some player in Ball Four (Danny Cater?) who was famous around the league (and ridiculed) for being able to calculate his batting average to four decimals as he ran down to first.

anyway real asterisk heads know that judge merely tied the *true* AL record of 60. ruth hit 60 in a 154-game season; judge didn't hit his 61st until game 155

― mookieproof, Thursday, September 29, 2022 2:44 PM (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink

judge has fewer plate appearances !!1!11

xp the room cube should be rotating too to spice things up a bit

And everyone should drink, smoke and whore as much as Ruth

Mike Greenburg is pretty much wrong on everything but I had the AM radio on eating lunch in my car a couple weeks ago and I wanted to hit him with a brick as he kept going on and on and on about how Judge deserved some more attention because Bonds was on 'roids. I kept thinking to myself the whole time, 'hey ahole Babe Ruth did not have to play against black or latin players' how about an asterisk for him too. Times change and the world moves on.

xp the baseball room cube should rotate very slowly and in every direction (like tommy lee's drum riser hovering above the crowd during a solo) so that over the course of 1000 games the cube has encountered every shadow/daylight possibility an exact equal number of times for each player

finally, we will be able to compare every player on an equal playing field

Saw one of the walks today, and honestly, it was infuriating. Bottom of the 7th, Judge leading off. The Yankees are up 4-0, the game is meaningless to both teams. First three pitches, outside and not even close, not one of them. The fourth pitch was very hittable: outside strike, good for getting your arms out, but Judge fouled it off. Next pitch, outside and not even close.

As with the Jays and a few of their walks, the Yankees go on to a big inning (four runs). Unless you're terrified of giving up #62, why wouldn't you go right at him? I checked the run expectancy matrix, and none out and a runner on 1st yields 0.831 runs. Judge homers once every nine AB this year, hits a single once every 6.5 AB, gets a double once every six AB; he makes out 69% of the time. I don't know how to put all that together, but the walk seems like a bad move percentage-wise. And even it's a slightly better move, who cares? Your team is out.

let us at least get to 82 wins first before we have to sacrifice ourselves to the legend of the One True Yankee

Fair enough--getting over .500 would be important to a surprise team. I probably assumed without thinking about it that they were already there.

But even as a percentage move, walking the leadoff batter when you're down four runs seems very iffy. (And believe me, the Jays were pulling exactly the same kind of stuff.)

well brandon hyde does also just strike me as the kind of manager who would view it as a personal failure if 62 was hit off his team

All the walks have probably kept him in the Triple Crown picture. Bogarts has dropped to .307; Judge is a couple of points behind Arraez. He's unlikely to have one of those 0-4 or 0-5 nights that could effectively end any chance; two walks a night, then he either goes 0-2 or 1-2. He needs to sneak in a three-hit game or two on a night he gets five PA.

i just want never to hear about roger maris jr. ever again

in their last 20 games, Judge and Pujols have both hit 6 HRs

or wait, actually Pujols hit one today, so make that 7-6 Pujols. take that Aaron Judge!

If I'm the Rangers manager, I'm gathering my pitchers together and summoning the voice of Casey Stengel: "You need to give this fella a chance--I want you pitchin' to him."

they should pitch however they think will best win them the game. no one should bow to the yankees

I don't see it as bowing to the Yankees--I'd say the same with anybody on any team. I'm not saying groove one, just that the games are meaningless, give the guy a chance; challenge him.

rather than try to win the game? okay

Pitching to someone means you're not trying to win the game? These guys are all professional baseball players, right? Pitchers included? Time and again the past two weeks teams have set up multi-run Yankee innings by needlessly walking Judge when either no one was on or there was a runner on first. I really and truly don't see where you're coming from. Texas is 66-92 right now. They're going to pull out all the strategic stops, stupid ones included, so they can what--finish 68-94?

If Judge gets all of six AB in the next four games, I see a sport pointlessly shooting itself in the foot--par for the course when it comes to baseball.

wait you think pitchers are self-defeatingly refusing to give judge balls to hit? out of like, malice?

what i think is that judge, like all truly fearsome sluggers before him, rattles pitchers who have to face him to the point where they can barely think. ruth and bonds were both consistent walk leaders. not because pitchers were intentionally shooting themselves in the foot. but because they were so good pitchers were scared to put it down the middle. it’s judge’s skill that provokes the walks. which as you have noted, are productive - so… if he’s sparking rallies then… wgaf?

i haven't watched any of the recent games. i assume since the rest of the lineup is struggling, opposing teams are happy to pitch around judge