Post a controversial music opinion

(If you type ‘patti smith lyrics’ into Google, five of the eight most popular songs are on Horses, and one is ‘Because the Night’.)

Not sure what that's supposed to prove tbh. Why lyrics? Why eight? What if one album is more popular? Fwiw, of her top 10 songs on Spotify, only three are from Horses and "Because the Night" (from Easter) has almost six times the number of plays as the #2 song ("Dancing Barefoot" from Wave, not Horses).

Actually #3 is her "Smells Like Teen Spirit" cover. The top Horses song is "Gloria" at #4 and the #5 song is "People Have the Power" from Dream of Life.

I’ve known many people who dearly love Horses, but I can’t recall a single person ever declaring a passion for any of the other work, intermittent poetry and photography included.

like, also, dude has never met another rock critic in his life? and expressing in it a way that makes me want to give him a wedgie he can't recover from

With Horses criticism I always think of this old Reynolds bit

Better as an idea than a musical reality, I retort. "Land" is enduringly awesome, but most of the rest of it is, as Joe Carducci said, a rock critic's and a poet's vision of "rock'n'roll", and as such its rapid decline into Springsteen shlockodrama was predictable from the off. And the debut features one of the weakest stabs at white reggae ever—it makes The Members look like Jah Shaka.

Whereas it's one of the only NY punk albums I *do* genuinely like.

table, how do you reconcile your admiration for Pound's _Cantos_ and his anti-semitism (which pops up often in'em)? I'm not trying to zing. I want to understand how you weigh an artist's grotesqueries. Or is that you find Pound a more fascinating poet, thus requiring you to think about his offenses?

She embodies the best and worst elements of the Beats, the Doors, punk, etc. etc. so I can definitely understand why someone wouldn't like her but I kind of buy into her cult of personality when I would dismiss other artists trying to do something similar. My wife was quite moved by Patti's memoirs so her enthusiasm is something that I enjoy connecting with.

I haven't read Patti Smith's memoir. I did read Debbie Harry's, which I found eminently readable, funny and even moving in some parts. I vaguely remember a reference or two to Patti Smith in the book, but apparently they weren't memorable (unlike her encounter with, say, Iggy Pop and David Bowie). At any rate, I can respect Patti for carving her own path in a male-dominated field, but Debbie did the same thing with a hell of a lot more style.

I was actually at the Lincoln Center and Summerstage shows mentioned above - they really were amazing. The Lincoln Center show was right after the atrocious Trump rally/GOP convention calling for Clinton to be executed. Patti was furious about that, and when she capped off the show (I think "Gloria") she grabbed her guitar and screamed "EXECUTE THIS MOTHERFUCKER!" and unleashed a vicious wave of feedback. Again, this was outdoors on the UWS, so I'm sure plenty of residents heard it that evening.

I've only grown to love her music over the years. I have the same reservations about her memoir - I can see how it appeals to people who romanticize the LES but that's not me - and her albums generally aren't perfect, but at least five of them are overall good, and Horses is still a favorite. I think I posted this elsewhere, but she's kind of like the grandmother I wish everyone had. My parents would certainly hate her, but she'd be a good antidote to what's wrong with them.

*I have the same reservations others have about her memoir

I have the video of the very end of that Lincoln Center show on my phone. She ended it by saying, over thunderous music any 70 yo should be proud of, "People! Be strong! Be vigilant! Don't take any bullshit! Be good! Love one another! Motherfuckers!"

Please Kill Me came out in 1996 and upended all of that, bc Patti Smith came out of it looking kind of sketchy if not fraudulent and Blondie came out looking great.

Is this true? Because pretty much everyone (except maybe David Johansen) comes off terribly in that book, which is one of its "charms".

I haven't listened to enough Patti Smith to have an opinion either way on her entire output, but I think Ask The Angels (off Radio Ethiopia) is one of the *great* rock songs, just pure arrogant defiance in the midst of apocalyptic meltdown. "Rock and roll is what I'm born to be": an absolutely thrilling line in the context of the song.

I'm just glad this hasn't (yet) descended into the misogyny of the Patty Smyth vs. Patti Smith thread.

really loving this revive. several things coming up that put words to my feelings re:patti. i've never seen her live, but the sentiment that she's better in person than on record somehow makes perfect sense to me.

also this is a perfect insulting phrase for alltimes-

Springsteen shlockodrama

fun to say out, too.

*out loud

Another thing (and maybe this discussion should be taken to a Patti Smith thread) I loved about seeing Patti is the obvious warmth and affection she and Lenny Kaye have for each other. It really came through on stage and not as rehearsed banter of musicians but as the sort of small talk/looks a married couple might have after all that time.

man Burt Bacharach is some tepid overrated crowd-pleasing garbage, wtf y'all

absolutely do not get the appeal, novelty songs at best and cloying Hallmark sentimentality at worst

What the world needs now
Is drugs
Sweet drugs

He didn't write lyrics -- are you accusing the music of being sappy?

Bacharach co-wrote garbage during and after his peak period, but if you don't get what Dionne Warwick accomplished with "Walk On By" or Aretha with "I Say a Little Prayer," then, yeah, wtf

I have thankfully never investigated enough to be aware that he didn't write lyrics, that explains a lot but also begs the question of why he hitched his music to such terrible words

"Walk On By" is OK I guess, but remember I dislike most pop anyway

“do you know the way to San Jose” is basically prog rock

I won't go as far as sleeve, I find myself feeling impressed by the complex songwriting and Warwick's vocal prowess, but can't really connect with it beyond that.

david's lyrics are a notch above a lot of the pop chart pap of the era

that said, i will never like “what the world needs now is love,” yuck

the best fake Bacharach song is “going out of my head” but that’s probably not controversial l

when it comes to "Walk On By" it's Smith & Mighty > Sybil >>>> Gabrielle >>>>> Dionne

Sybil's version of "Don't Make Me Over" was my intro.

What do you get when you kiss a girl

You get enough germs to catch pneumonia

After you do, she'll never phone ya

“do you know the way to San Jose” is basically prog rock

― not too strange just bad audio (brimstead), Sunday, February 12, 2023 12:03 PM (four hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

It also has some of the most devastatingly sad lyrics of any pop song, brilliant contrast with the deceptively cheery music.

taylor swift, bewyonce, drake and kendrick lamar aren't good

A challenging opinion

People call me rude
I wish we were all nude

phil spector is overrated, wall of sound was not a great and novel idea, be my baby would've been a massive tune with any production

his slurry is honestly a drag to listen to and takes way too much attention away from the performers (in the end product and in its critical reception)

phil spector is overrated, wall of sound was not a great and novel idea, be my baby would've been a massive tune with any production

― corrs unplugged, Monday, March 13, 2023 4:26 AM (three hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

Well, I agree with the third part of that

Spector wrote Be My Baby though with a couple other people, he wrote most, close to all of his hits

Looking at the credits to the Back to Mono comp it seems the only track where Spector has sole writing credits is "To Know Him Is to Love Him", not really a massive tune

But yeah, he does get a writing credit (that seems like more than a producer's writing credit) on many great songs

there was a big Hoffman thread with a variety of takes, but my takeaway was that it was definitely more than a Elvis tax thing and his contributions likely varied, could be a writing a bridge or punching up certain things, lyricc, or just the arrangements, or more trad cowrites. I suppose that whole era was such a machine, so many people had their hands on the songs. but I think he made significant contributions, it's just hard to tease out in the era before the Beatles/Dylan/singer-songwriter paradigm

I made a related observation re: Spector last year (to general disinterest)!

agreed re: general sentiment of spector being overrated. i don't care if he solely wrote every song he ever worked on, it's very milquetoast music and definitely stuff i think of as "dated" in a bad way by now. maybe wrong vibe for thread but i always considered him one of the great "villains" of rock and roll and subsequently have no issues diminishing his contributions. not meaning to be malicious and he was involved in some classic jams, i've just never understood "the big deal."

(also my thoughts on spector are very much informed by david axelrod's take on him: all that "wall of sound" bullshit created a nightmare for the engineer in those small ass studios spector used to use; that engineer probably deserves a lot more credit for making the idea happen than spector deserves for simply proposing it.)

I certainly rank Shadow Morton a bit higher among girl group producers.

xp I just thumbed thru the index of an interview book with various producers, and they definitely give Spector credit in various ways, for knowing exactly what he wanted and how to get it (even while talking about how his engineers knew the "formula" for producing the sound).

...and hey, here's Alan Parsons agreeing with my general take:

These days when you hear even the great '60s records on CD, my god, there are a few fluffs and bungles in there. I mean, the so-called Phil Spector 'Wall of Sound' may have sounded good on the radio, but if you hear it on CD it's got a few deficiencies...

is it a fault for him to have been producing for the primary medium through which his records would be heard in the real world? (AM transistor radio)

but i guess i don't buy that the arrangements and production don't mean anything, "be my baby" is a great song and was a great song played on the piano in the writing process, but is it a HIT without those drumbeats at the beginning? i don't know. whether that beat was spector or someone else or just the session drummer doing something cool on the fly (wiki says it was hal blaine doing it at the suggestion of jack nitzche (who himself played a big role in the wall of sound)

or in a totally different example, i was watching a brian jones doc and someone in the film pointed out that yes he didn't write "under by thumb" or "paint it black", but did those songs become hits because of the words and chord or because of his marimba part or his sitar part? i take a lot of exception to what we consider "songwriting" in general, it's still all derived from the sheet music industry

or like zep's "when the levee breaks" - was that memphis minnie? page's arrangement...or...I would argue the single most important part of that song is bonham's drumbeat

xp Of course it’s not his “fault”; it just doesn’t sound so great now

(fwiw, I'm also not sure I agree that "Be My Baby" would have been just as big a hit with other production!)

It would sound just as good on a strummed acoustic etc etc

or on a player piano

I mean it's clearly a masterpiece

It's a great song for sure, but surely it may have not as big a hit without that beat, etc. (though I guess corrs unplugged technically said "a massive tune")

i just wish the alan parsons project could have had the chance to do "be my baby" justice

Bearing in mind [usual disclaimer about how I don't know shit about music]; I don't think I agree that it would work as well with different production. I feel like a lot of the real hooks of "Be My Baby" are created by contrast against the Wall of Sound - the isolated intro drumbeats giving way to it, the vocals alternately blending with it and emerging out of it.

think it's also besides the point, like, a great song that is greatly enhanced by the production will probably sound pleasant/enjoyable without that production, but not necessarily *as* good, and that takes nothing away from the role the production played.