rolling #metoo thread for sexual harassment in the music industry so no one misses out when artists we don't give a fuck about like Tim Westwood and Bassnectar get caught

The same TMV who are literally about to release an album about toxic masculinity and cults, btw - doing their bit of recompense

Whether through luck or judgement, virtually no artist I really like has ever, to public knowledge, been an abuser, groomer, pest.

This is true for me as far as musicians are concerned, thankfully, but authors, directors, and comedians are another story altogether

Luckily we are spoiled for choices now and there is plenty of art to consume made by non-douchebags

Reason? Firstly, it does reflect a carceral mindset wherein people cannot change their behaviors and become better, less abusive people. I have a friend who was credibly accused of consent violations relating to rough sex and BDSM, and when he came to his senses, he quit drinking, started intensive therapy, stopped going to shows, and started working with RAINN. He was still run out of town, but he’s continued working on himself and these issues in his new location. I find the accusations against him despicable, but I also am not sure permanent exile is the right thing to do in his case, for example.

And then there’s another guy, who was accused of straight up sexual battery by multiple women, and he was run out of town— only to then do the same thing to women in his new location.

The WB behavior is wearily familiar to what went down in some of my circles, except the power imbalance was worse in the case that I'm thinking of. This person also left town, rightfully so.

As far as consequences and reform, it's so difficult/maybe impossible to know what's going on in someone's head. In this case the abuser was smart enough to do and say lots of the "right" things, pursue lots of therapy, etc. But they were also at one point calling to "apologize" and "take responsibility for" but also to downplay and explain (i.e. lie about) the allegations in the same breath. Even if they did have the awareness to supposedly stop the abusive behavior at some point before they were found out and to pay lip service to certain aspects of it, in my opinion they're too deeply narcissistic to truly countenance the damage they caused or change in a real way, even if they change their behavior. I'm sure they had hopes to quickly do some rehab (under the "sex addiction" banner) and regain some aspects of their former life, but I think they've at least found out that no one is obligated to accept their apology or offer forgiveness.

Relevant assholery and creepiness 2min onwards.

The song is pretty WTF? too. Foreign TV, man...

I had never seen that video of RHCP before. They continue unscathed even when Kiedis himself admits to sleeping with an underage girl in his bio. I’m pretty sure there’s a bunch of shit to be dug out.

― ✖✖✖ (Moka), Wednesday, August 31, 2022 11:27 AM (fifty minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

That video is from June, 1990. Three months earlier, this happened (TW/CW: sexual assault):

https://www.upi.com/Archives/1990/03/17/Two-members-of-Red-Hot-Chili-Peppers-arrested/7434637650000/

The song is pretty WTF? too. Foreign TV, man...

― an icon of a worried-looking, long-haired, bespectacled man (C. Grisso/McCain),

The sounds they make in the first two minutes alone should've gotten them sent to The Hague.

Brad otm upthread about people not knowing how to act - not just on this board but in general imo!! If these accused individuals took time and effort to think before they act impulsively, to learn about and employ principles of consent (again I recommend the FRIES model) they could effectively check themselves before they wreck themselves.
Spare us the excuses afterward by not violating people to start with. Imagine that!

otm

Here’s a video if you’re unfamiliar w the FRIES model of consent

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTSDIilyA2I

It’s pretty well known at this point, but back to the topic:

https://www.disasterserum.com/your-favorite-rockstar-is-probably-a-creep

― ✖✖✖ (Moka)

whether or not they are also a "weirdo" is up for debate

It can be more complicated than that when power dynamics are involved, though -- I think in some cases these men can convince themselves that they're good because consent is being given freely in the moment, after they've already engaged in a lengthy campaign of grooming and emotional manipulation.

Yes, and then there are cases like Scott Kelly's, where the abuse emerges from an apparently tranquil family situation, although we'll probably never know what signs we're there before

The F in FRIES means no coercion or manipulation; everyone needs to follow it, the pursuer as well as the pursued. The more we educate ourselves the less this will happen and that is the goal correct????

Domestic abuse is an entirely different issue than sexual coercion.

There needs to be a way out of this — we can’t just keep and update a binder of creeps

Like I don’t need to be told that grooming and coercion exist. I’ve been aware most of my life tbrrwu. I need to believe there is a pathway to safer, healthier human interaction.

La Lech Killa

Agreed, and I think coverage and discussion of these cases will genuinely act as a deterrent for some people in the future. But also I think that Win Butler and similar men convinced themselves that they were not in fact engaging in coercion or manipulation at the time, and that there's a lot of compartmentalization and selective (lack of) empathy going on. And they were/are capable of doing so for years at a time. I don't know what the answer is, but I do hope that increased awareness of what this looks like has a positive effect (even if it's just because they're afraid of consequences).

xp

pretty sure they know what they're doing

it bothers me a lot that old boomer icons still always seem get a pass for this shit - they helped create this culture but no one wants to touch them - maybe because it seems to implicate too many people and too much beloved music

I see the article basically already made that point although the list could be expanded to include almost every prominent male rocker

I don't mean to say they don't know what they're doing, or to relieve them of an ounce of responsibility, but the defenses they come up with after the fact have a big element of "I thought this was ok at the time."

yeah Jimmy Page in particular seems like a situation nobody wants to think about

I know of one editor who's actively attempting to shake the tree on at least one pervy boomer but what can anyone really do with 30-year-old stories that have already been published multiple times

I believe power imbalances leading to predatorial behaviors long predates boomers, the only innovation they brought was the scene.

is it power imbalances that lead to predatorial behaviors? pretty sure there's a larger force behind both.

Like I don’t need to be told that grooming and coercion exist. I’ve been aware most of my life tbrrwu. I need to believe there is a pathway to safer, healthier human interaction.

― Piggy Lepton (La Lechera)

i believe there is, but not while they have the power and we bear the responsibility. education alone won't work. we need to be able to _enforce consequences_ on abusers. until then, i guess all i can do is collect binders and try to keep myself and the people i care about safe :(

is it power imbalances that lead to predatorial behaviors? pretty sure there's a larger force behind both.

― (grim) pump track (wales) (map)

glad someone beat me to the "abolish capitalism" thing, i feel like a broken record preaching to the choir and jeez what other hackneyed metaphors can i throw in there

I think I am more interested in the prevention side of this issue than the punishment/consequences side. I don't feel equipped to enforce consequences tbh; none of the people who have treated me or my friends abysmally have ever had any consequences in spite of our cataloguing of their behavior/binders of creeps. The only time I have been on the inside of a whisper network, I was either the whisperer myself or I was informed about someone whose behavior had already suggested to me that I need to keep my distance. (This dude who invited me on fb to play music with him and his girlfriend at night at their home even though we had never met? Nope, and then i heard about what a creep he is. I already could tell.)

However, I do know how to educate and that is where I tend to put my energy.

I think I am more interested in the prevention side of this issue than the punishment/consequences side.

― Piggy Lepton (La Lechera)

i don't see them as separable, frankly. patriarchal misogyny doesn't just _tolerate_ bad behavior, it _rewards_ it. men who treat women with respect, or fail to perform abusive behaviors that are taken to be _normative_ male behavior, are mocked and punished for it, while men who excel in abusing women disproportionately reach positions of power, prestige, and success. without justice, we will have no peace. once again, they have the power, we bear the consequences. i don't say this to be defeatist, but to suggest that we should work as allies, collectively, to oppose and dismantle systems of oppression. i believe that we _can_ and _must_ do this for education to have any real, lasting effect.

She was writing about where to put a finite amount of her own energy.

https://consequence.net/2022/08/arcade-fire-first-concert-sexual-misconduct-allegations/

wow that is a terrible "article"

Arcade Fire took the stage at Dublin’s at 3Arena in Dublin on Tuesday for

In Dublin

Dublin up

I bet Feist is regretting signing that tour contract... What a horrible situation to be in. The loss of income would be financially terrible, esp post Covid, but the emotional toll of keeping to the contract would also be terrible. It's a lose lose.

She was writing about where to put a finite amount of her own energy.

― The self-titled drags (Eazy)

shit my bad sorry ll, i'm not at my best today :(

Feist is donating proceeds from the merch at the Arcade Fire show tonight to Women’s Aid Dublin pic.twitter.com/36Q3lyYXSL

— kevin freeburn (@KevFreeburn) August 30, 2022

Kind of wishing this had its own thread. As much as a creep Win Butler clearly is, its looking like a 70% chance of completely blowing over like it did for Aziz Ansari and President Joe Biden and Pinegrove

Kind of wishing this had its own thread. As much as a creep Win Butler clearly is, its looking like a 70% chance of completely blowing over like it did for Aziz Ansari and President Joe Biden and Pinegrove

― Histoire de BradNelson (Whiney G. Weingarten)

can any good thing come out of Montclair?

Great book store. Used to have great record stores.

Probably preaching to a choir, education is important and must be improved but also limited. I’m certain Butler knew very well what he was doing was wrong, he just chose to ignore it, or maybe even he did it precisely because it is evil. As long as the judicial system doesn’t treat sexual harrasment like other crimes, education is facing too uphill a climb.

what the fuck are you talking about

Why are people so keen on shitting on/refuting the utility of education about consent? It makes you look like you don’t think it matters. You would be better served by spreading the word.

’m certain Butler knew very well what he was doing was wrong,

When did you guys talk?

Whether through luck or judgement, virtually no artist I really like has ever, to public knowledge, been an abuser, groomer, pest.

― imago

I'm not sure if you still hold Mansun in such high regard, but Paul Draper is known as being a creep with a history of inappropriate behaviour towards women. His rants about Laura Snapes earlier this year (when he threatened to quit the music industry) were because she'd been working on an article about his behaviour for a while. It all came to light a few years ago when that band Estrons pulled out of supporting him as he sent inappropriate messages to the singer after the first night of the tour. I don't think it has been widely reported though.

Judgment? How does that work when listening to some music?

I find it hard to believe that imago has never liked Swans

they never clicked, which I am extremely thankful for

I almost mentioned Draper in my post above! I still hold Mansun's work in high regard, yes - it certainly helps when the liked music pre-dates the apparently problematic period. I knew the Estrons incident - pathetic and extremely poor behaviour on his part - but didn't know Snapes had more dirt on him. His new album is almost insuperably bitter about this'n'that, some of which I presume to be his 'cancellation' - which doesn't exactly help matters. As I say, I know of the incident where he propositioned his tourmate on Facebook, and it's a black mark, but if there's more, well, I guess I'd better brace for it

Why are people so keen on shitting on/refuting the utility of education about consent? It makes you look like you don’t think it matters. You would be better served by spreading the word.

― Piggy Lepton (La Lechera)

it's a good question! for me it's a matter of radicalism vs. liberalism. there's this tendency for people with a liberal approach to oppose radical change on the grounds that it's unnecessary overreach, that liberal changes in and of themselves will bring about the desired results. basically i think that liberal approaches are necessary but not sufficient, and when people talk about liberal approaches as if they _are_ sufficient, it's an impediment to making radical change happen, and of, well, honestly, chastising radicals for not being more liberal. i think there's enough room for each of us to advocate for women in our own way!

https://pitchfork.com/news/feist-announces-shes-leaving-arcade-fire-tour-im-claiming-my-responsibility-now-and-going-home/