rolling #metoo thread for sexual harassment in the music industry so no one misses out when artists we don't give a fuck about like Tim Westwood and Bassnectar get caught

xpost I don't expect you to know all of the ins and outs, but it was never my point that my friend shouldn't have tried to out the guy and seek to put him out of business, it was that she's hit quite a few people with friendly fire in the process due to a) not doing proper vetting first, and b) assuming intentional malice on behalf of people who might not have been aware, or *might not even be from this country*, let alone this city.

he's beyond redemption and I wish someone would finally press charges and him go to actual prison but it's doubtful

OK so all these musicians

Scott Kelly can go to Hell for all I care

I also think that, as we see cases that are more "mundane" (not to excuse Scott for what he did, but more that what Scott did is sadly quite common) and less extreme (e.g. R Kelly, M Manson), it should become more evident that abusers are generally not monsters, but are relatively average people who have done monstrous things.

? sarahell

"Monstrous" is a really loaded word for me. My experience of abusers is that abusers are relatively average people who have _had monstrous things done to them_, internalized those monstrous things as _normal_, and then done monstrous things to other people. Which is fucking terrifying because me personally, the stuff I grew up thinking of as "normal" was actually really horribly abusive and fucked up. When I talk about things that have happened to me, things that to me are just totally normal everyday parts of my life people say things like "I just can't imagine how awful that would be."

And then there’s another guy, who was accused of straight up sexual battery by multiple women, and he was run out of town— only to then do the same thing to women in his new location.

― broccoli rabe thomas (the table is the table)

I mean, I was raised Catholic. This method of addressing abuse looks VERY VERY FAMILIAR to me.

It is a challenge. Particularly in marginalized/queer spaces like BDSM spaces. Where I live, people circulate secret lists of people who have been identified as abusers, because if you repeat these accusations publicly you'll be attacked and ostracized, because the people who are on these lists are in entrenched seats of power. And that helps us who are in the know, who have access to this information, but when this all first came out, I was talking to someone in the scene and they said "Well, yeah, everybody knows this stuff." And I didn't! I'd just walked in off the fucking street and I had no idea who the bad actors were. So it's not a good way of handling things. And none of this of course really helps me feel safe given my existing abuse and trauma issues.

THIS is what I was trying to say about about Win Butler -- he could literally be anyone! Anyone with access to impressionable admirers who does not possess the (apparently) elusive quality of sufficient boner control when it comes to engaging in inappropriate behaviors AND has no idea how consent works. I was reminded of Ken Stringfellow, who did basically the same thing. In my mind I separate it as someone who is a dog (no insult to actual dogs, who I love) and someone who is deeply malevolent. A cowardly dogger who takes advantage of people and lies to cover it up ("I thought she wanted it!" I was reading her signals!") vs R. Kelly? Huge difference. In spite of their malfeasance taking very different forms, they both create immense damage in their wake, that much is for sure.

Mandatory consent training for everyone, widespread adoption of the FRIES model please.

Reason? Firstly, it does reflect a carceral mindset wherein people cannot change their behaviors and become better, less abusive people.

yeah ... I am thinking about a certain person we both know, T, and how he was run out of town and the repercussions of that one ... still continue.

In my mind I separate it as someone who is a dog (no insult to actual dogs, who I love) and someone who is deeply malevolent.

otm

After four albums and more than a decade together, Arcade Fire remains a tight family.
"Well, we've also never had drugs in our band," said Butler. "You know, there's a lot of pitfalls. We've all read the rock biographies!"
"And you take your lessons from that?"
"To be honest, I always found it so boring. I have no interest in that. In fact I find it embarrassing, like, some old rocker who is like, 'Yeah, groupies.' I actually find it embarrassing, you know?"
"Why do you find it embarrassing?"
Well, it's like seeing a drunk Santa Claus or something like that!" he laughed.

Aged like milk

One thing I can't get over about the WB situation is how he has a goddamn excuse for everything. Like how is "I was depressed and drinking to excess" even remotely a good excuse for what he did to people?! I would like to know if he has always been a dog or if he just turned into one when he starting drinking and was depressed? What an idiot.

"aged like milk" otm lol

ll otm — for me using the excuse of excessive drink and drug use has always cast the person offering such explanations in a way worse light. it's like, "yeah, not being able to exercise any self control is how you got here, so that checks out completely."

xp - i still don't understand the unsolicited dick pics urge tbh ... maybe i'm not into dicks enough? but ... i don't think that's the problem

it's a power thing. sure, if you're in a couple and you typically send each other noodz, that's fine, but i've never known someone to send one unsolicited to an acquaintance or stranger that actually thought their recipient would like the pics. it's almost a sort of perverse form of imprinting.

my g/f back in 2009 got sent two of them within a half hour by the same guy from an unknown number.

idgi either -- out-of-nowhere no-precedent genital photography seems so unnatural and there is no irl equivalent aside from flashing which we have all agreed is v bad/illegal for some time now.

well ilx's king of this is no longer posting which makes me feel better about ilx

THIS is what I was trying to say about about Win Butler -- he could literally be anyone! Anyone with access to impressionable admirers who does not possess the (apparently) elusive quality of sufficient boner control when it comes to engaging in inappropriate behaviors AND has no idea how consent works. I was reminded of Ken Stringfellow, who did basically the same thing. In my mind I separate it as someone who is a dog (no insult to actual dogs, who I love) and someone who is deeply malevolent. A cowardly dogger who takes advantage of people and lies to cover it up ("I thought she wanted it!" I was reading her signals!") vs R. Kelly? Huge difference. In spite of their malfeasance taking very different forms, they both create immense damage in their wake, that much is for sure.

― Piggy Lepton (La Lechera)

At the risk of sidetracking my personal experience is not that men are "dogs" who don't have "boner control". This is anecdotal, obviously, but for a number of decades I had the same anatomy and hormones that men have, and men saying they _have_ to fuck somebody... that's bullshit. Nearly all men have hands. If their libido gets too out of control, they can go to a goddamn toilet stall and jerk it. If a man engaging in _inappropriate sexual behavior_, there's something other than a simple failure of boner control going on.

I also don't personally find a lot of value distinguish between "genuinely malevolent" people and people who are just, I don't know, dumb ignorant horndogs. I think people should be held responsible for their words and actions. Whatever those are. If someone _behaves_ like a malignant narcissist (in the manner that, say, Win Butler is), he should be treated accordingly.

xp - i still don't understand the unsolicited dick pics urge tbh ... maybe i'm not into dicks enough? but ... i don't think that's the problem

― sarahell

I talked about this a little bit w/r/t the Jerry Sadowitz thing - my take is that it is a form of sexual abuse, one which is actively sought out and cultivated by dating sites. Dating sites don't exist to match two people up with each other. They exist to make the dating site a profit by giving men the opportunity to sexually abuse people by sending unsolicited dick pics to them.

xp I never said "men are dogs" -- I lack a better word for uncontrollably horny people who do not know how to/refuse to try to exercise sexual self control. fwiw masturbation is a form of boner control in my mind. People used to claim sex addiction and that seems to have fallen out of favor?

horndog is the full-length version afaik

(I type way too slow but xp)

I was pretty skeptical this only happened during that alleged down period for Win. Combined with the other details it seemed preposterous - what did he do, go up to his wife and get her permission to turn into a complete sex-obsessed shit to deal with his depression?

And I don't get the dick pic thing either - I don't think it's a generational thing since Win's obviously older, but it's like ever since smartphones came into being, there have been way too many people who think it's suddenly okay to flash people like some pervert in a trench coat. I think virtually every female I know on a dating app has had that happen to her, like WTF???

idk if i feel like sending one unsolicited dick pic to an adult is "abusive" ... again, just speaking for myself. there is a certain vulnerability required to do the sending tbh, which is why i find it confounding. However, if a guy flooded my phone or inbox with dick pics, or, if i said "not that" in response to a single dick pic, and then more were sent, or if i blocked the guy and he sent them from another account ... yeah, that's crossing a line.

People used to claim sex addiction and that seems to have fallen out of favor?

Always seemed to be Hollywood actors though never plumbers or bus drivers.

idk if i feel like sending one unsolicited dick pic to an adult is "abusive" ... again, just speaking for myself. there is a certain vulnerability required to do the sending tbh, which is why i find it confounding. However, if a guy flooded my phone or inbox with dick pics, or, if i said "not that" in response to a single dick pic, and then more were sent, or if i blocked the guy and he sent them from another account ... yeah, that's crossing a line.

― sarahell

they're not sending unsolicited dick pics to just _one_ person, though. it's a repeated, systemic pattern of behavior. it's a _systemic_ form of sexual abuse, and it's one that is not only tacitly permitted but _encouraged_ by the business model adopted by internet dating sites.

i don't think it _is_ an act of vulnerability to send somebody a picture of one's cock. you know, i show someone my tits there could be some very serious repercussions to that, repercussions that men just _don't face_ for sending unsolicited anonymous pictures of their penises to people on dating sites.

I think virtually every female I know on a dating app has had that happen to her, like WTF???

wtf exactly ... want to fuck? ... like, I get it in the context of dating apps. It is potentially appropriate. But like, on Instagram messenger (in the Win B context) or pretty much any other communication platform that is not focused on hooking up, it is a mystery.gif

Always seemed to be Hollywood actors though never plumbers or bus drivers.

― Buckfast At Tiffany's (Tom D.)

well it's about what you can get away with. it really is. men abuse because not only are they not _discouraged_ from abusive behavior, they are often actively _encouraged_ to abuse, that it is held up as not just normal but _normative_ behavior. i certainly was encouraged multiple times when i was younger to engage in behavior that i'd consider to be, at the least, _inappropriate_.

xp rushomancy -- i think we are operating from different definitions of abuse

I've known women who have been spammed (if that's the right word) repeatedly by the same guy. Don't know how broadly this applies, but said guy had a comically small penis, which to me indicates a combination of insecurity, self-loathing and need for approval. Plus anger, I suppose.

grower not a shower iirc

LOL at anger - "look at my small penis!! Why must I be so small??? GAH, AARRRRRGH!!!!"

penis so small he took the pic with a Motorola Razr to mke it look bigger

please tell me someone he sent it to put a clown emoji on the head of it and sent it back

I've known women who have been spammed (if that's the right word) repeatedly by the same guy. Don't know how broadly this applies, but said guy had a comically small penis, which to me indicates a combination of insecurity, self-loathing and need for approval. Plus anger, I suppose.

― immodesty blaise (jimbeaux)

lol and here i was in the other thread just talking about how much i loved meta dicks, well fine y'all be size queens ig

xp rushomancy -- i think we are operating from different definitions of abuse

― sarahell

probably, i guess harassment would maybe be more accurate... the general point is that it creates a hostile and misogynist environment. it's kind of challenging for me, because even though i'm a lesbian i do in fact like guys (the "bi/pan lesbian" thing), i think they're hot, but i got certain needs, like, if i'm gonna be with a guy i need him to treat me like a woman and not a fetish object, and if you look at the single guys... i mean, obviously, it's a skewed sample size, right? the ones who can treat women with respect go off the market pretty quickly, and the ones who are just there to harass women with unsolicited dick pics and the couples looking for a unicorn stick around. so i do find dating sites, particularly the subset of men on dating sites, to be a pretty hostile environment.

I LOATHE an unsolicited dick pic, your boner can wait the minute it takes to ask "can I send an explicit picture" and receive a reply, and anyone who isn't willing to do that work is someone I will assume is bad at consent and should stay away from.

I’m shook to learn this is a common occurrence. Isn’t it the same as “exposing yourself” in person? Like not just ethically, but legally(?)

(And not that I’m saying anyone it happens to should go running to the cops, but the fact that there are a significant number of guys who would go doing that at all… oy)

I LOATHE an unsolicited dick pic, your boner can wait the minute it takes to ask "can I send an explicit picture" and receive a reply, and anyone who isn't willing to do that work is someone I will assume is bad at consent and should stay away from.

― boxedjoy, Monday, August 29, 2022 5:11 PM bookmarkflaglink

otm. ffs even if you can't wait, just take the boner pic and dont' SEND it until you get the consent.

xpost my girlfriend at the time said the cops basically laughed at her and said block the number.

I attempted to find the guy and believed I had located the identity of the person myself through one of those reverse lookup sites but she didn't want to spend any more energy on it. esp since I wasn't 100% confident.

that was 13 years ago, nowadays it'd probably be easier to identify the dick

reversedicklookup.com etc etc

even a decade ago when I was single and online dating, not a day would go by where I wouldn't log in to any account and find an unsolicited nude in my inbox. My pals who date men all talk about how they would never open a dating app on public transport now.

omg reversedicklookup.com should exist ... honestly, that would be a great use for AI

must register your dick on the national dick database.

commercials with LL Cool J saying "c'mon, you gotta register your car if you use it, why not your joint too?"

reversedicklookup requires incredible focus, practice and strength but imo it's a waste to make a whole website about just one dicktrick - there are so many others

I LOATHE an unsolicited dick pic, your boner can wait the minute it takes to ask "can I send an explicit picture" and receive a reply, and anyone who isn't willing to do that work is someone I will assume is bad at consent and should stay away from.

― boxedjoy,

A guy I've been seeing intermittently for months will send private Instagram messages of his cock and rim jobs and -- it grosses me out? He's also much younger, probably unaware of the impression he makes. It's partially my fault for tolerating it.

omg reversedicklookup.com should exist ... honestly, that would be a great use for AI

― sarahell, Monday, August 29, 2022 5:29 PM (eleven minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

sarah, don't give that idea away for free.

I hear of guys who do this and I just wanna ask them how often it actually works for them. Obviously you would never get a truthful answer. But I would think that sending an unsolicited dick pic to a girl you are NOT already seeing has a success rate of like, less than 0.1%. in fact I would not be surprised to find out that it has never worked in the entirety of human history. there is, however, a significant chance she sends it to your Mom or your boss

similar to catcalling it is not intended to "work" it is just an assertion of power

exactly

it’s the same principle as flashing - the dude is getting off on the act of forcing the viewer’s gaze & being seen period, esp unwillingly

it’s nothing at all to do with “luring a mate” or whatever