rolling #metoo thread for sexual harassment in the music industry so no one misses out when artists we don't give a fuck about like Tim Westwood and Bassnectar get caught

from Rolling Metal thread, re: Scott Kelly
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A STATEMENT FROM NEUROSIS

We cannot overstate the level of disgust and disappointment we feel for a man who we once called Brother.

As a band, we parted ways with Scott Kelly at the end of 2019 after learning about severe acts of abuse he committed towards his family over the previous years. In the past, Scott had disclosed his marital difficulties and acts of verbal abuse, as well as his intention to get help and change his behaviors. The information we learned in 2019 made it clear Scott had crossed a line and there was no way back. We did not share this information out of respect for his wife’s direct request for privacy, and to honor the family’s wish not to let their experience become gossip in a music magazine. With Scott’s Facebook post of August 27, 2022 disclosing much of this information publicly, we can finally say what we believe needs to be said.

For the last twenty years we have lived far apart from one another and only saw Scott when meeting up to work on music or play shows. We had no idea what the reality was for his family when we were not around. By Scott's own admission, his abuse was intentional, targeted, and a closely guarded secret - even from those of us closest to him.

Once we learned of his abuse it was difficult to reconcile the horrible information with the person we thought we knew. It’s not surprising he hid the abuse for so long because it is a betrayal of our ethics as bandmates, partners, parents, and human beings.

Since 2019, we have made numerous attempts to contact Scott. We wanted to have an honest talk about the status of the band and find out how he and his family were doing, but he has refused to speak with us for three years. And, in what we now see clearly to be a pattern, Scott refused to take responsibility for his actions. Having been through so much with someone for more than 35 years, one would expect some amount of closure, or at the very least a response.

Now, without returning any of the calls, texts, or e-mails of his bandmates and friends, Scott has made a public post about the situation. To us, this decision seems like another attempt at manipulation, another opportunity for his narcissism to control the narrative. Don't allow Scott to make this about himself, it's about the abuse his family has suffered.

Usually, we would view public openness and honesty about mental illness as brave and even productive. We just don’t believe that is the case here.

There is nothing brave about systematically abusing your wife and children.

There is nothing brave about confessing wrongdoing when you have not done the work to change your behavior.

There is nothing brave about refusing to speak honestly, or speak at all, with one’s closest friends and bandmates, people who have supported you and stuck by you for most of your life.

Compared to the impact of Scott’s actions on his family, the impact on our band pales in significance. Nevertheless, with the heartbreak and horror we also grieve for the loss of our life’s work and a legacy that was sacred to us.

Again, our primary concern is for the safety and well-being of Scott’s wife and children, as well as anyone else in a similar situation. If someone you know is experiencing domestic violence or abuse, please reach out to one of the many local or national resources available. One national resource is:

National Domestic Violence Hotline 1-800-799-7233 www.thehotline.org

If you or someone you know is suffering from mental health issues that could make you a danger to yourself or others, please get help before you hurt yourself or the people you love.

One resource for that is:

www.988lifeline.org

This is the only statement we plan to make about this issue. In due course, when it's appropriate, we will provide more information about our future musical endeavors, but that time is not now.

― but also fuck you (unperson), Monday, August 29, 2022 9:37 AM bookmarkflaglink

one of my mutuals with him said "that was the polite version"

Full credit to them.

Sanford Parker's separate statement also key:

https://www.facebook.com/sanford.parker/posts/10221367118952623

The only time I check facebook these days is when someone calls me and says "did you see the crazy shit homeboy just posted?!" which leads me to my next topic.
In response to Scott Kelly’s post I would like to make it crystal clear that during the active years of Corrections House and Mirrors for Psychic Warfare I had no idea the level of abuse Scott was inflicting onto his family. He always talked about his “mental illness” and things he did in the past he regretted, but nothing like this.

Over the last 12 plus years he and I have spent countless time together. I would be with him every second of every day for months at a time, often just the two of us and I have never seen this side of him. Not even close. It’s truly mind-blowing his level and power of manipulation he has on people.

In January of 2020 Scott cut off all contact with me for no reason. I tried repeatedly reaching out via text, emails and phone calls and nothing. I tried several times reaching out to his wife but was told everything was ok. Then in March of 2021 she sent me a lengthy detailed email about the abuse she and the kids had experienced and it was honestly the most disturbing thing I have ever read, it made me physically ill. I wish I could unsee it. By that point though the damage had been done and as far as I knew they were away from him and safe.

I poured my heart and soul into Corrections House and Mirrors for Psychic Warfare and now they are rotten. I will never have the same pride for those bands I once did and that truly hurts. This has been hard for me to process over the past year, but by this point in my life I am used to it and I move on.

I see a lot of people praising him for his honesty and that’s total bullshit, he deserves no praise. I have no sympathy for Scott and neither should you. I do have much love for his family and I really hope they are able to heal and move forward.

I don't know the exact details of what Kelly did to his family, but what's especially sad is that it sounds like everyone was ready to give him a chance - like, they knew he had mental illness and were willing to be supportive if he could admit the harm coming out of it and work on himself, and instead he made more excuses and kept being a complete shit.

pic.twitter.com/K17AUTyRRX

— Celine Dijon (@JerilynJordanE) August 28, 2022

i think one of the things abusers understand the least, one of the biggest misconceptions, is that you can just admit what you did and apologize and then people have to forgive you. nobody has to forgive you. ever. opening up about what you've done, if you're honest about it, you're giving the people you tell the right to judge you, to reject you. tell someone that you abused them and they can never talk to you again, hate you forever, wish death upon you, for what you've done. they have the _right_ to do that. that's _just_. even if the person you're talking to wasn't the person you abused.

when a person abuses, they are responsible for the results of their actions. when someone owns up to having abused and apologizes, that gives others the _opportunity_ to forgive. if someone _isn't_ honest, _doesn't_ recognize what they've done is wrong, it is impossible to truly forgive them, it is only possible to excuse them. none of us ever _have_ to forgive, though. ever. the only reason forgiveness has meaning is because we _choose_ it.

that's really well put and thought-through, thank you

xp i think in many cases, it isn't that they don't understand, it's that they want the problem to go away ASAP and move on. It's painful. The reckoning is painful. I also think that, as we see cases that are more "mundane" (not to excuse Scott for what he did, but more that what Scott did is sadly quite common) and less extreme (e.g. R Kelly, M Manson), it should become more evident that abusers are generally not monsters, but are relatively average people who have done monstrous things.

Only from what I'm familiar with, apologies can feel like empowerment - like it just gives them a license to continue doing the same thing. For a better person, it's the breakthrough where they finally make the change they need to and get help, but some complete shit, it can be part of the cycle of inflicting harm, making a token apology, getting the victim to give them a pass, and then repeat.

But apologies take on different meanings in different contexts, and abuse can also be many things and different from person to person and relationship to relationship, so I think what an apology entails and what it really leads to needs to be evaluated on a case-by-case basis.

what an apology entails and what it really leads to needs to be evaluated on a case-by-case basis.

otm

the thing is, so few people are willing to take ownership and apologize anymore, that when someone actually does it, sometimes our brains overcorrect and want us to 'praise' the person for being self-aware. in some cases of minor transgressions, that might be ok, but not for what Scott Kelly did. and the thread where he posted his latest status was filled with congratulatory "this is why you're amazing" and "thank you for being so open" type messages, and no regard for the family he abused. that's when someone called him out and pointed out what happened in 2017, which is what alerted me to that situation.

We do wish more people would apologize for their transgressions, regardless of the size. doing it is the first step in bettering oneself, but you don't get to restore your life to what it was. It means losing friendships due to hurting people, it means losing significant others for the same reason, and depending on the size of the transgression ,it may mean a lot of people seeing you in a different light.

if you put in the work and actually better yourself, you may find yourself forgiven. you may not. it's out of your control, but it shouldn't be your focus - the focus should be making things right.

for example I pushed away one of the best friends I ever had when I was 18-20 years old because I was young, naive, and needed therapy/medication, and didn't respect boundaries like I should have. i had feelings for this person that were not reciprocated, but I kept harassing her to be with me for two years and making them uncomfortable, used manipulative methods to make them feel guilty often, and they couldn't take it anymore. I was horrified when I finally became sentient enough to realize what I'd done to her, and apologized and I fixed the behavior in myself, but she never returned, and that's the price you pay when you fuck up. we're on friendly terms again though, on social media, just not in each others' lives. but I'm glad I'm not hurting them anymore.

I fixed the behavior in myself, but she never returned, and that's the price you pay when you fuck up. we're on friendly terms again though, on social media, just not in each others' lives. but I'm glad I'm not hurting them anymore.

yeah, thanks for saying that ... I had a relationship when I was about 19-20 where I was really horrible to my partner and the current status is basically that. sometimes I see him post on mutual friends' social media and wish that we were friends and could banter and chat outside of that context ... but, that ship has sailed.

and before we completely parted ways, we were in this pattern that he described as "like Charlie Brown and Lucy with the football" where I would apologize and say that I would be better, but then continue the shitty behavior

As someone who has witnessed a lot of the culture around these issues evolve, I want to note that simply ejecting the abusive person from the culture and their lives is often not the way to go, particularly in cases where the abusive person isn’t famous.

Reason? Firstly, it does reflect a carceral mindset wherein people cannot change their behaviors and become better, less abusive people. I have a friend who was credibly accused of consent violations relating to rough sex and BDSM, and when he came to his senses, he quit drinking, started intensive therapy, stopped going to shows, and started working with RAINN. He was still run out of town, but he’s continued working on himself and these issues in his new location. I find the accusations against him despicable, but I also am not sure permanent exile is the right thing to do in his case, for example.

And then there’s another guy, who was accused of straight up sexual battery by multiple women, and he was run out of town— only to then do the same thing to women in his new location.

I’m still not sure myself as to whether a one size fits all solution can work in these cases, because there are certainly instances of people changing their behaviors and lives for the better, and banishment allows for an out of sight, out of mind mentality that both discards this possibility as well as the possibility that banishment makes the abuser more likely to commit abuse in their new context.

Reason? Firstly, it does reflect a carceral mindset wherein people cannot change their behaviors and become better, less abusive people.

yes, this. i think circumstances matter. I think on an individual level, if the victim chooses not to give the aggressor a second chance, that's perfectly valid. and I understand distrust and suspicion remaining years after the behavior aberrates.

but sooner or later, if you shun someone who seems interested in redeeming themselves and taking away their livelihood, it can lead to a kind of social recidivism.

magnitude and foreknowledge I guess matter too. like I legitimately didn't realize my behavior was shitty until several different people called me on it, and I looked at it from the outside.

but hard to argue someone who is assaulting/gaslighting women isn't aware.

complex issue for sure

a kind of messy example of this and how it can backfire, this year's Fringe Festival, there is a known graphic designer/actor/occasional producer in town that multiple women came out and said was abusive, including two of his ex-fiancees. so every year, one of his exes makes a 'Cancel List' for Fringe where she implores people to not only boycott any show he's affiliated with (acting in, producing), but any tangentially involved (including people who use him to create their show poster, some of whom might not all have been aware of the accusations.

one of the shows who made this list this year actually had no involvement from the accused, but was misidentified publicly as such and added to the boycott list, and this lead to a whole bit of drama* with people accusing each other of 'gaslighting', and lots of bad blood.

(*I'm a self-hating theatre person).

what should she do instead

I keep writing and deleting things here because I don't know how to gently express concerns about context and emphasis without necessarily disagreeing with anything in theory

xpost maybe wait to confirm he's actually involved before spreading rumors? try and reach out to the people who bought his posters to see if they were aware?

i was already boycotting the dude because I hated him from pretty much the moment I met him so it's no skin off my back.

why should she have to do that work

sounds like everyone else has failed

because in the case of the first one, the person she accused of being involved w/ him was an LGBTQ+ POC performer putting on a show about body positivity, and had the false message reached far enough, she could have significantly ruined this person's first show as a producer?

in the case of the second, because assuming everybody knows something when the only way the message has spread is Facebook, some of the performers are from out of town or part of the social circle and actually legitimately don't know, and they'd probably be glad to stop working with the guy if they were tipped off rather than lose thousands of dollars on a production and be tangentially accused of enabling hate when they actually didn't know?

I mean this isn't like white people pretending systemic racism is a thing through their own ignorance. people can not be aware of things, idk what to tell you.

OK but why is he still there

isnt the question under discussion right now 'where should he be'

why is that the question under discussion? there could be a different thread maybe

idk fuck it carry on

it's always not a bad discussion to have it just feels way too advanced for a situation in which the basics are barely even established

Im not saying you're wrong!

xpost I don't expect you to know all of the ins and outs, but it was never my point that my friend shouldn't have tried to out the guy and seek to put him out of business, it was that she's hit quite a few people with friendly fire in the process due to a) not doing proper vetting first, and b) assuming intentional malice on behalf of people who might not have been aware, or *might not even be from this country*, let alone this city.

he's beyond redemption and I wish someone would finally press charges and him go to actual prison but it's doubtful

OK so all these musicians

Scott Kelly can go to Hell for all I care

I also think that, as we see cases that are more "mundane" (not to excuse Scott for what he did, but more that what Scott did is sadly quite common) and less extreme (e.g. R Kelly, M Manson), it should become more evident that abusers are generally not monsters, but are relatively average people who have done monstrous things.

? sarahell

"Monstrous" is a really loaded word for me. My experience of abusers is that abusers are relatively average people who have _had monstrous things done to them_, internalized those monstrous things as _normal_, and then done monstrous things to other people. Which is fucking terrifying because me personally, the stuff I grew up thinking of as "normal" was actually really horribly abusive and fucked up. When I talk about things that have happened to me, things that to me are just totally normal everyday parts of my life people say things like "I just can't imagine how awful that would be."

And then there’s another guy, who was accused of straight up sexual battery by multiple women, and he was run out of town— only to then do the same thing to women in his new location.

― broccoli rabe thomas (the table is the table)

I mean, I was raised Catholic. This method of addressing abuse looks VERY VERY FAMILIAR to me.

It is a challenge. Particularly in marginalized/queer spaces like BDSM spaces. Where I live, people circulate secret lists of people who have been identified as abusers, because if you repeat these accusations publicly you'll be attacked and ostracized, because the people who are on these lists are in entrenched seats of power. And that helps us who are in the know, who have access to this information, but when this all first came out, I was talking to someone in the scene and they said "Well, yeah, everybody knows this stuff." And I didn't! I'd just walked in off the fucking street and I had no idea who the bad actors were. So it's not a good way of handling things. And none of this of course really helps me feel safe given my existing abuse and trauma issues.

THIS is what I was trying to say about about Win Butler -- he could literally be anyone! Anyone with access to impressionable admirers who does not possess the (apparently) elusive quality of sufficient boner control when it comes to engaging in inappropriate behaviors AND has no idea how consent works. I was reminded of Ken Stringfellow, who did basically the same thing. In my mind I separate it as someone who is a dog (no insult to actual dogs, who I love) and someone who is deeply malevolent. A cowardly dogger who takes advantage of people and lies to cover it up ("I thought she wanted it!" I was reading her signals!") vs R. Kelly? Huge difference. In spite of their malfeasance taking very different forms, they both create immense damage in their wake, that much is for sure.

Mandatory consent training for everyone, widespread adoption of the FRIES model please.

Reason? Firstly, it does reflect a carceral mindset wherein people cannot change their behaviors and become better, less abusive people.

yeah ... I am thinking about a certain person we both know, T, and how he was run out of town and the repercussions of that one ... still continue.

In my mind I separate it as someone who is a dog (no insult to actual dogs, who I love) and someone who is deeply malevolent.

otm

After four albums and more than a decade together, Arcade Fire remains a tight family.
"Well, we've also never had drugs in our band," said Butler. "You know, there's a lot of pitfalls. We've all read the rock biographies!"
"And you take your lessons from that?"
"To be honest, I always found it so boring. I have no interest in that. In fact I find it embarrassing, like, some old rocker who is like, 'Yeah, groupies.' I actually find it embarrassing, you know?"
"Why do you find it embarrassing?"
Well, it's like seeing a drunk Santa Claus or something like that!" he laughed.

Aged like milk

One thing I can't get over about the WB situation is how he has a goddamn excuse for everything. Like how is "I was depressed and drinking to excess" even remotely a good excuse for what he did to people?! I would like to know if he has always been a dog or if he just turned into one when he starting drinking and was depressed? What an idiot.

"aged like milk" otm lol

ll otm — for me using the excuse of excessive drink and drug use has always cast the person offering such explanations in a way worse light. it's like, "yeah, not being able to exercise any self control is how you got here, so that checks out completely."

xp - i still don't understand the unsolicited dick pics urge tbh ... maybe i'm not into dicks enough? but ... i don't think that's the problem

it's a power thing. sure, if you're in a couple and you typically send each other noodz, that's fine, but i've never known someone to send one unsolicited to an acquaintance or stranger that actually thought their recipient would like the pics. it's almost a sort of perverse form of imprinting.

my g/f back in 2009 got sent two of them within a half hour by the same guy from an unknown number.

idgi either -- out-of-nowhere no-precedent genital photography seems so unnatural and there is no irl equivalent aside from flashing which we have all agreed is v bad/illegal for some time now.

well ilx's king of this is no longer posting which makes me feel better about ilx

THIS is what I was trying to say about about Win Butler -- he could literally be anyone! Anyone with access to impressionable admirers who does not possess the (apparently) elusive quality of sufficient boner control when it comes to engaging in inappropriate behaviors AND has no idea how consent works. I was reminded of Ken Stringfellow, who did basically the same thing. In my mind I separate it as someone who is a dog (no insult to actual dogs, who I love) and someone who is deeply malevolent. A cowardly dogger who takes advantage of people and lies to cover it up ("I thought she wanted it!" I was reading her signals!") vs R. Kelly? Huge difference. In spite of their malfeasance taking very different forms, they both create immense damage in their wake, that much is for sure.

― Piggy Lepton (La Lechera)

At the risk of sidetracking my personal experience is not that men are "dogs" who don't have "boner control". This is anecdotal, obviously, but for a number of decades I had the same anatomy and hormones that men have, and men saying they _have_ to fuck somebody... that's bullshit. Nearly all men have hands. If their libido gets too out of control, they can go to a goddamn toilet stall and jerk it. If a man engaging in _inappropriate sexual behavior_, there's something other than a simple failure of boner control going on.

I also don't personally find a lot of value distinguish between "genuinely malevolent" people and people who are just, I don't know, dumb ignorant horndogs. I think people should be held responsible for their words and actions. Whatever those are. If someone _behaves_ like a malignant narcissist (in the manner that, say, Win Butler is), he should be treated accordingly.

xp - i still don't understand the unsolicited dick pics urge tbh ... maybe i'm not into dicks enough? but ... i don't think that's the problem

― sarahell

I talked about this a little bit w/r/t the Jerry Sadowitz thing - my take is that it is a form of sexual abuse, one which is actively sought out and cultivated by dating sites. Dating sites don't exist to match two people up with each other. They exist to make the dating site a profit by giving men the opportunity to sexually abuse people by sending unsolicited dick pics to them.

xp I never said "men are dogs" -- I lack a better word for uncontrollably horny people who do not know how to/refuse to try to exercise sexual self control. fwiw masturbation is a form of boner control in my mind. People used to claim sex addiction and that seems to have fallen out of favor?

horndog is the full-length version afaik