rolling #metoo thread for sexual harassment in the music industry so no one misses out when artists we don't give a fuck about like Tim Westwood and Bassnectar get caught

*from that guy

Anyway, no problem quitting Arcade Fire, Swans, Jane’s Addiction, Crystal Castles. It won’t bankrupt them but there’s so much more to discover that I can leave the assholes behind. I hope their victims are believed and find some reward for their courage by making the world more difficult for predators.

Anyway, no problem quitting Jane’s Addiction

― assert (matttkkkk)

the easiest addiction to quit

i'm not going to say i got a "bad vibe" from them but the video for "been caught stealin'" always made me uncomfortable. in retrospect it's clearly the way portraying someone dressing as a woman in order to shoplift perpetuates the toxic "deceptive trans" stereotype.

Glad you have "no problem" moving on but a lot of people will feel differently. Esp those who have an intense emotional connection with the music. Your stance seems unnecessarily dismissive of those who will find it a real struggle to just "quit" what may have been a favourite band. I really feel for those people, even if personally I never connected wth the music myself.

Especially in the case of Crystal Castles where the victim is also a band member.

Kate, I read a fascinating article once that basically suggested "gossip" amongst women is an informal information sharing and safety network, i.e. "stay away film that guy, he's a creep". Which is why patriarchy likes to dismiss "gossip" as childish. It's an attempt to diminish and demean one of the only tools we have to keep ourselves safe.

― The Ghost Club

the article is right - gossip absolutely _is_ an informal information sharing and safety network! it's also a _poor_ substitute for justice. it is _very easy_ for misinformation and disinformation to spread via these means and difficult to control its spread. rumor, innuendo, and hearsay are not things one can build a justice system upon. unfortunately, these are the only tools we have access to :(

Yeah, that's a tough one. Feels like erasing a victim to erase a perpetrator. But you could also see the Crystal Castles albums as documents of abuse, which would never be ok to engage with. It's a super hard call.

Xp that was in response to Van Horn Street obvs

Yeah, that's a tough one. Feels like erasing a victim to erase a perpetrator. But you could also see the Crystal Castles albums as documents of abuse, which would never be ok to engage with. It's a super hard call.

― The Ghost Club

it's a personal call, but i again want to push back on the "Abusers are Bad People who do Bad Things to Victims" narrative. that's not my _experience_ of abuse. pete townshend to me is a fascinating example. like it's a matter of public record that he was a member of an underground internet site which trafficked child abuse images, and that's just, like, ok, apparently, because he came out there and said (truthfully, as far as i know) "i'm a victim of child abuse and i'm working on an album about it".

i don't find it helpful, as an abuse victim, to be defined as a Victim. like, the whole framing is kind of fucked up, the whole basic frame of "is listening to a crystal castles record supporting an abuser, is not listening to a crystal castles album erasing a victim", i mean, this is fucking chicken sandwich levels of morality here. the whole thing is fucked, it doesn't make a just world for me to say "well i'm not going to listen to Arcade Fire" records anymore" any more than my choosing to use energy-efficient lightbulbs will create climate justice. it's an individual choice. the fact that i personally don't feel comfortable listening to magma records anymore doesn't do a fucking thing to end fascism.

Agree Kate, It's completely a personal call. Selling a Crystal Castles CD won't do a thing to end abuse, I agree. But I just couldn't have it in my house, because of what it brought up for me.

I agree victim is shitty language. As a victim of domestic abuse, I don't like the term. But really, what alternatives are there? I hate survivor. I'm not a survivor. Some days I'm barely coping with my trauma. That's not surviving. But I think the real issue is being defined solely as a victim. I was a victim - in specific circumstances, with ongoing consequences - but that's not all I am. I'm also a partner, a mum, a fierce non-binary queer woman etc. None of these things alone defines me. I'm all these things and a shitload more. So I use the term, while acknowledging its significant limitations, for lack of a better alternative.

I don’t know who in Jane’s Addiction did something fucked up but I’m guessing the answer is “anyone but Perkins”

I agree victim is shitty language. As a victim of domestic abuse, I don't like the term. But really, what alternatives are there? I hate survivor. I'm not a survivor. Some days I'm barely coping with my trauma. That's not surviving. But I think the real issue is being defined solely as a victim. I was a victim - in specific circumstances, with ongoing consequences - but that's not all I am. I'm also a partner, a mum, a fierce non-binary queer woman etc. None of these things alone defines me. I'm all these things and a shitload more. So I use the term, while acknowledging its significant limitations, for lack of a better alternative.

― The Ghost Club

right, it's being defined _solely_ as a victim that i don't do great with, i absolutely own that i am a victim but that doesn't erase all of the other things I am.

Ghost Club I absolutely adored the first AF album and closely identified with it. And the first two Crystal Castles, and the moodier Jane’s stuff like Three Days. Swans blew me away when I saw them perform and I think The Seer is an outstanding record. These are artists it significantly hurts to let go of, for me, but saying “no problem” is my way of acknowledging that some things are far more important than my enjoyment of music.

Assert, thanks for clarifying. It's a pretty personal and nuanced issue (see that whole art v artist thread) so it's important to reflect that in the conversation. I did feel "no problem" was a bit flippant and simplistic in the context. I much prefer your more personal and reflective take.

I don’t know who in Jane’s Addiction did something fucked up but I’m guessing the answer is “anyone but Perkins”

― Histoire de BradNelson (Whiney G. Weingarten), Sunday, August 28, 2022 6:42 PM (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink

iirc the discussion was over on a Jane's Addiction thread about Perry and Casey doing drugs and having sex with Xiola, who at the time they met was underage and later died of an overdose at 18.

like how often is a white woman's "bad vibe" targeted towards someone Black

― Murgatroid, Sunday, August 28, 2022 1:35 PM (six hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

This is an issue that has come up in True Crime circles in recent years. Examples are brought up of, for example, women who were set up to go on a date with someone, but then got a bad vibe off the guy and bailed. Not just like "he chewed with his mouth open" bad vibe, but "raised the hackles on their neck" or some other deep down primal feeling. Then years later the women see the guy on the news because it turns out was a Big Serial Killer and he went out and killed some other woman two nights later. I've read of a few of instances of this type of thing, and it seems instructive about listening to your gut and getting yourself out of a bad situation instead of being polite and continuing the date or whatever.

However, a counterpoint has definitely been made about some women equating "gut feeling" to "seeing a black guy in their white neighborhood".

Win Butler; centrist Dad

https://consequence.net/2018/03/win-butler-arcade-fires-everything-now-lackluster-response/amp/

I'm losing my mind at how poorly Win's comments (in the 2018 Guardian profile) have aged.

“We’re trying to connect, trying to get people in the back to engage,” Butler explains. “With the Reflektor tour one of the reasons for asking people to dress up for the shows was that we were then able to wear masks and be in the crowd and hang out and have a vibe of what’s going on. There’s a certain power in the rock star: they’re bigger than life and you can’t touch them. Being in the audience breaks that wall.”

the whole profile made him sound stupid as hell back then but now it reads as just laying the groundwork for the pivot to right-wing hackery that'll happen if he doesn't have the sense to retire in shame

This gets more and more heartbreaking the more I process it. Even the extremely unlikely "best-case" scenario for Win pretty much reeks. I wasn't a fan of their recent music, but I did become a convert who played the shit out of The Suburbs, went to their first MSG show and (incorrectly) believed they would follow it with more great things.

from Rolling Metal thread, re: Scott Kelly
----------------------------------------------

A STATEMENT FROM NEUROSIS

We cannot overstate the level of disgust and disappointment we feel for a man who we once called Brother.

As a band, we parted ways with Scott Kelly at the end of 2019 after learning about severe acts of abuse he committed towards his family over the previous years. In the past, Scott had disclosed his marital difficulties and acts of verbal abuse, as well as his intention to get help and change his behaviors. The information we learned in 2019 made it clear Scott had crossed a line and there was no way back. We did not share this information out of respect for his wife’s direct request for privacy, and to honor the family’s wish not to let their experience become gossip in a music magazine. With Scott’s Facebook post of August 27, 2022 disclosing much of this information publicly, we can finally say what we believe needs to be said.

For the last twenty years we have lived far apart from one another and only saw Scott when meeting up to work on music or play shows. We had no idea what the reality was for his family when we were not around. By Scott's own admission, his abuse was intentional, targeted, and a closely guarded secret - even from those of us closest to him.

Once we learned of his abuse it was difficult to reconcile the horrible information with the person we thought we knew. It’s not surprising he hid the abuse for so long because it is a betrayal of our ethics as bandmates, partners, parents, and human beings.

Since 2019, we have made numerous attempts to contact Scott. We wanted to have an honest talk about the status of the band and find out how he and his family were doing, but he has refused to speak with us for three years. And, in what we now see clearly to be a pattern, Scott refused to take responsibility for his actions. Having been through so much with someone for more than 35 years, one would expect some amount of closure, or at the very least a response.

Now, without returning any of the calls, texts, or e-mails of his bandmates and friends, Scott has made a public post about the situation. To us, this decision seems like another attempt at manipulation, another opportunity for his narcissism to control the narrative. Don't allow Scott to make this about himself, it's about the abuse his family has suffered.

Usually, we would view public openness and honesty about mental illness as brave and even productive. We just don’t believe that is the case here.

There is nothing brave about systematically abusing your wife and children.

There is nothing brave about confessing wrongdoing when you have not done the work to change your behavior.

There is nothing brave about refusing to speak honestly, or speak at all, with one’s closest friends and bandmates, people who have supported you and stuck by you for most of your life.

Compared to the impact of Scott’s actions on his family, the impact on our band pales in significance. Nevertheless, with the heartbreak and horror we also grieve for the loss of our life’s work and a legacy that was sacred to us.

Again, our primary concern is for the safety and well-being of Scott’s wife and children, as well as anyone else in a similar situation. If someone you know is experiencing domestic violence or abuse, please reach out to one of the many local or national resources available. One national resource is:

National Domestic Violence Hotline 1-800-799-7233 www.thehotline.org

If you or someone you know is suffering from mental health issues that could make you a danger to yourself or others, please get help before you hurt yourself or the people you love.

One resource for that is:

www.988lifeline.org

This is the only statement we plan to make about this issue. In due course, when it's appropriate, we will provide more information about our future musical endeavors, but that time is not now.

― but also fuck you (unperson), Monday, August 29, 2022 9:37 AM bookmarkflaglink

one of my mutuals with him said "that was the polite version"

Full credit to them.

Sanford Parker's separate statement also key:

https://www.facebook.com/sanford.parker/posts/10221367118952623

The only time I check facebook these days is when someone calls me and says "did you see the crazy shit homeboy just posted?!" which leads me to my next topic.
In response to Scott Kelly’s post I would like to make it crystal clear that during the active years of Corrections House and Mirrors for Psychic Warfare I had no idea the level of abuse Scott was inflicting onto his family. He always talked about his “mental illness” and things he did in the past he regretted, but nothing like this.

Over the last 12 plus years he and I have spent countless time together. I would be with him every second of every day for months at a time, often just the two of us and I have never seen this side of him. Not even close. It’s truly mind-blowing his level and power of manipulation he has on people.

In January of 2020 Scott cut off all contact with me for no reason. I tried repeatedly reaching out via text, emails and phone calls and nothing. I tried several times reaching out to his wife but was told everything was ok. Then in March of 2021 she sent me a lengthy detailed email about the abuse she and the kids had experienced and it was honestly the most disturbing thing I have ever read, it made me physically ill. I wish I could unsee it. By that point though the damage had been done and as far as I knew they were away from him and safe.

I poured my heart and soul into Corrections House and Mirrors for Psychic Warfare and now they are rotten. I will never have the same pride for those bands I once did and that truly hurts. This has been hard for me to process over the past year, but by this point in my life I am used to it and I move on.

I see a lot of people praising him for his honesty and that’s total bullshit, he deserves no praise. I have no sympathy for Scott and neither should you. I do have much love for his family and I really hope they are able to heal and move forward.

I don't know the exact details of what Kelly did to his family, but what's especially sad is that it sounds like everyone was ready to give him a chance - like, they knew he had mental illness and were willing to be supportive if he could admit the harm coming out of it and work on himself, and instead he made more excuses and kept being a complete shit.

pic.twitter.com/K17AUTyRRX

— Celine Dijon (@JerilynJordanE) August 28, 2022

i think one of the things abusers understand the least, one of the biggest misconceptions, is that you can just admit what you did and apologize and then people have to forgive you. nobody has to forgive you. ever. opening up about what you've done, if you're honest about it, you're giving the people you tell the right to judge you, to reject you. tell someone that you abused them and they can never talk to you again, hate you forever, wish death upon you, for what you've done. they have the _right_ to do that. that's _just_. even if the person you're talking to wasn't the person you abused.

when a person abuses, they are responsible for the results of their actions. when someone owns up to having abused and apologizes, that gives others the _opportunity_ to forgive. if someone _isn't_ honest, _doesn't_ recognize what they've done is wrong, it is impossible to truly forgive them, it is only possible to excuse them. none of us ever _have_ to forgive, though. ever. the only reason forgiveness has meaning is because we _choose_ it.

that's really well put and thought-through, thank you

xp i think in many cases, it isn't that they don't understand, it's that they want the problem to go away ASAP and move on. It's painful. The reckoning is painful. I also think that, as we see cases that are more "mundane" (not to excuse Scott for what he did, but more that what Scott did is sadly quite common) and less extreme (e.g. R Kelly, M Manson), it should become more evident that abusers are generally not monsters, but are relatively average people who have done monstrous things.

Only from what I'm familiar with, apologies can feel like empowerment - like it just gives them a license to continue doing the same thing. For a better person, it's the breakthrough where they finally make the change they need to and get help, but some complete shit, it can be part of the cycle of inflicting harm, making a token apology, getting the victim to give them a pass, and then repeat.

But apologies take on different meanings in different contexts, and abuse can also be many things and different from person to person and relationship to relationship, so I think what an apology entails and what it really leads to needs to be evaluated on a case-by-case basis.

what an apology entails and what it really leads to needs to be evaluated on a case-by-case basis.

otm

the thing is, so few people are willing to take ownership and apologize anymore, that when someone actually does it, sometimes our brains overcorrect and want us to 'praise' the person for being self-aware. in some cases of minor transgressions, that might be ok, but not for what Scott Kelly did. and the thread where he posted his latest status was filled with congratulatory "this is why you're amazing" and "thank you for being so open" type messages, and no regard for the family he abused. that's when someone called him out and pointed out what happened in 2017, which is what alerted me to that situation.

We do wish more people would apologize for their transgressions, regardless of the size. doing it is the first step in bettering oneself, but you don't get to restore your life to what it was. It means losing friendships due to hurting people, it means losing significant others for the same reason, and depending on the size of the transgression ,it may mean a lot of people seeing you in a different light.

if you put in the work and actually better yourself, you may find yourself forgiven. you may not. it's out of your control, but it shouldn't be your focus - the focus should be making things right.

for example I pushed away one of the best friends I ever had when I was 18-20 years old because I was young, naive, and needed therapy/medication, and didn't respect boundaries like I should have. i had feelings for this person that were not reciprocated, but I kept harassing her to be with me for two years and making them uncomfortable, used manipulative methods to make them feel guilty often, and they couldn't take it anymore. I was horrified when I finally became sentient enough to realize what I'd done to her, and apologized and I fixed the behavior in myself, but she never returned, and that's the price you pay when you fuck up. we're on friendly terms again though, on social media, just not in each others' lives. but I'm glad I'm not hurting them anymore.

I fixed the behavior in myself, but she never returned, and that's the price you pay when you fuck up. we're on friendly terms again though, on social media, just not in each others' lives. but I'm glad I'm not hurting them anymore.

yeah, thanks for saying that ... I had a relationship when I was about 19-20 where I was really horrible to my partner and the current status is basically that. sometimes I see him post on mutual friends' social media and wish that we were friends and could banter and chat outside of that context ... but, that ship has sailed.

and before we completely parted ways, we were in this pattern that he described as "like Charlie Brown and Lucy with the football" where I would apologize and say that I would be better, but then continue the shitty behavior

As someone who has witnessed a lot of the culture around these issues evolve, I want to note that simply ejecting the abusive person from the culture and their lives is often not the way to go, particularly in cases where the abusive person isn’t famous.

Reason? Firstly, it does reflect a carceral mindset wherein people cannot change their behaviors and become better, less abusive people. I have a friend who was credibly accused of consent violations relating to rough sex and BDSM, and when he came to his senses, he quit drinking, started intensive therapy, stopped going to shows, and started working with RAINN. He was still run out of town, but he’s continued working on himself and these issues in his new location. I find the accusations against him despicable, but I also am not sure permanent exile is the right thing to do in his case, for example.

And then there’s another guy, who was accused of straight up sexual battery by multiple women, and he was run out of town— only to then do the same thing to women in his new location.

I’m still not sure myself as to whether a one size fits all solution can work in these cases, because there are certainly instances of people changing their behaviors and lives for the better, and banishment allows for an out of sight, out of mind mentality that both discards this possibility as well as the possibility that banishment makes the abuser more likely to commit abuse in their new context.

Reason? Firstly, it does reflect a carceral mindset wherein people cannot change their behaviors and become better, less abusive people.

yes, this. i think circumstances matter. I think on an individual level, if the victim chooses not to give the aggressor a second chance, that's perfectly valid. and I understand distrust and suspicion remaining years after the behavior aberrates.

but sooner or later, if you shun someone who seems interested in redeeming themselves and taking away their livelihood, it can lead to a kind of social recidivism.

magnitude and foreknowledge I guess matter too. like I legitimately didn't realize my behavior was shitty until several different people called me on it, and I looked at it from the outside.

but hard to argue someone who is assaulting/gaslighting women isn't aware.

complex issue for sure

a kind of messy example of this and how it can backfire, this year's Fringe Festival, there is a known graphic designer/actor/occasional producer in town that multiple women came out and said was abusive, including two of his ex-fiancees. so every year, one of his exes makes a 'Cancel List' for Fringe where she implores people to not only boycott any show he's affiliated with (acting in, producing), but any tangentially involved (including people who use him to create their show poster, some of whom might not all have been aware of the accusations.

one of the shows who made this list this year actually had no involvement from the accused, but was misidentified publicly as such and added to the boycott list, and this lead to a whole bit of drama* with people accusing each other of 'gaslighting', and lots of bad blood.

(*I'm a self-hating theatre person).

what should she do instead

I keep writing and deleting things here because I don't know how to gently express concerns about context and emphasis without necessarily disagreeing with anything in theory

xpost maybe wait to confirm he's actually involved before spreading rumors? try and reach out to the people who bought his posters to see if they were aware?

i was already boycotting the dude because I hated him from pretty much the moment I met him so it's no skin off my back.

why should she have to do that work

sounds like everyone else has failed

because in the case of the first one, the person she accused of being involved w/ him was an LGBTQ+ POC performer putting on a show about body positivity, and had the false message reached far enough, she could have significantly ruined this person's first show as a producer?

in the case of the second, because assuming everybody knows something when the only way the message has spread is Facebook, some of the performers are from out of town or part of the social circle and actually legitimately don't know, and they'd probably be glad to stop working with the guy if they were tipped off rather than lose thousands of dollars on a production and be tangentially accused of enabling hate when they actually didn't know?

I mean this isn't like white people pretending systemic racism is a thing through their own ignorance. people can not be aware of things, idk what to tell you.

OK but why is he still there

isnt the question under discussion right now 'where should he be'

why is that the question under discussion? there could be a different thread maybe

idk fuck it carry on

it's always not a bad discussion to have it just feels way too advanced for a situation in which the basics are barely even established

Im not saying you're wrong!

xpost I don't expect you to know all of the ins and outs, but it was never my point that my friend shouldn't have tried to out the guy and seek to put him out of business, it was that she's hit quite a few people with friendly fire in the process due to a) not doing proper vetting first, and b) assuming intentional malice on behalf of people who might not have been aware, or *might not even be from this country*, let alone this city.

he's beyond redemption and I wish someone would finally press charges and him go to actual prison but it's doubtful