rolling #metoo thread for sexual harassment in the music industry so no one misses out when artists we don't give a fuck about like Tim Westwood and Bassnectar get caught

yeah i can't believe how inept that crisis PR firm is

Kate's character v behaviour take, and Moka's Bundy quip, are both otm.

The contrast between this Win Butler story and this Scott Kelly story is wild. But I’m still not clear about the specifics of the Win Butler accusations. The Pitchfork article includes a few paragraphs about power dynamics but it’s unclear how any of that related to these situations.

I’m also surprised by the number of people talking about this that are focusing on cheating rather than sending (possibly) unsolicited dick pics.

I don’t read that into any of the posts itt, and the power dynamics are so obvious that the writer of the Pitchfork piece probably didn’t think it necessary to explicate.

But I’m still not clear about the specifics of the Win Butler accusations.

there's alleged sexual assaults mentioned, on top of the unsolicited sexting and generally being predatory towards fans

The Pitchfork article includes a few paragraphs about power dynamics but it’s unclear how any of that related to these situations.

some of the victims' stories talk about how power dynamics were relevant to their situation, it's not hard to understand

La Lechera is 100% otm. I resent the implication that I liked (now very much past tense) Arcade Fire's music because I lacked the ability to discern Win Butler's personal shittiness. They didn't fool me with their music, they fooled me with power; it took concerted efforts of multiple people (his wife, other bandmates, presumably mgmt, PR, street team, etc) to keep his extra-musical behavior out of the headlines for this long. Fuck you if you think your superior taste means you can treat this like an occasion for jokes.

(Yes I'm very angry, and yes I'm even more disappointed.)

hoping he's serious now and this isn't a narcissistic attempt to use the incident to make himself look noble. (I don't know enough about Scott Kelly to say taht's the case, by any means).

not to be annoying, but, I've got a number of mutual IRL friends with him, and my instinct is that he's probably gotten a lot of "encouragement" to take accountability and also quit before he gets canceled/called out.

sorry if my personal reflection offends anyone. i'm not trying to snap on anybody or establish any sort of moral hierarchy whatsoever. that was not my intention. just had a bit of an "AHA!" moment because i've never liked the guy or his music. i certainly don't judge or begrudge anyone who did or still does. i just thought it was funny that, even at the peak of late-2000s arcade fire hysteria, i could never get into their music because of something i just wasn't able to put my finger on. just a bad vibe, i guess. i still don't know what was initially preventing me from enjoying their music, but it now seems appropriate to continue ignoring it.

anyway.☮️

personally, i think it's totally fine to "have a bad vibe" about someone, and then acknowledge it when you are proved correct. Like, I have had those "bad vibes" about so many people who turn out to be shitty. I think it's a valuable instinct to have tbh, especially when you are a type of person that is likely to be considered "prey." And maybe, because one is in the "prey" category, one tends to have honed these instincts more than someone who isn't or wasn't? I think there's a way of communicating this gracefully and sensitively that doesn't give off "blame the victim" connotations. ... though it is challenging.

and as far as this goes:

the real reason I am not a big fan of the 'bad vibes' thing is it's often misapplied to people who are socially awkward but fundamentally harmless.

I've definitely seen that happen, too, and have friends that have been the fundamentally harmless dudes ... and for me, it's about being careful re the application, and not being a jerk or bully.

a big concern about having a "bad vibe" about someone is how often, and not saying this about you Sara, but in general, is how often they are based on existing prejudices, subconscious or not

like how often is a white woman's "bad vibe" targeted towards someone Black

not to be annoying, but, I've got a number of mutual IRL friends with him, and my instinct is that he's probably gotten a lot of "encouragement" to take accountability and also quit before he gets canceled/called out.

― sarahell, Sunday, August 28, 2022 12:44 PM bookmarkflaglink

That's fair! I don't know much about the situation but it would make sense in context

thank you for mentioning that -- because I was thinking of double posting to add "not being a jerk or bully or racist" ...

but because the context(s) are arcade fire dude and neurosis dude ... who are both white ... i didn't immediately go there

personally, i think it's totally fine to "have a bad vibe" about someone, and then acknowledge it when you are proved correct. Like, I have had those "bad vibes" about so many people who turn out to be shitty. I think it's a valuable instinct to have tbh, especially when you are a type of person that is likely to be considered "prey." And maybe, because one is in the "prey" category, one tends to have honed these instincts more than someone who isn't or wasn't? I think there's a way of communicating this gracefully and sensitively that doesn't give off "blame the victim" connotations. ... though it is challenging.

― sarahell, Sunday, August 28, 2022 10:12 AM

thank you for this— and i obviously find it very otm.

again: i don't want to come off like i'm turning my nose up at anybody. if anything, i need to be called out if i'm coming across insensitive. i certainly don't mean to, but i don't always know the best way to do that.

Just remembered this from Butler: “I googled her and knew that she was 18.”

If you find yourself saying that phrase to a reporter, it should be one hell of a wake-up call

Yeah, that kind of jumped out. All of his defenses just basically make him look like more of a creep.

eh, there might be some contexts where that is totally acceptable ....this is not one of those.

The other thing to say about the “bad vibe” opinion is that it can look like victim blaming - they should have been able to pick up on it to avoid the situation. Not implying that it’s the reason such things were said here, but perhaps another reason why people find it objectionable.

I never liked Arcade Fire's music. It's just bland. But I don't think it's helpful to take an "I feel vindicated" stance in these situations. Adopting an attitude of "never cared, moving on" is disrespectful both to the victims, and the people who loved Arcade Fire's music. The "always got bad vibes" stance can be equally dismissive, and as pointed out, can also be victim blamey.

I think it's important to consciously separate how you feel about an artist's music, from your response when something this heinous comes out. It's a tough balancing act, but I guess where I've landed is: I never cared about AF, but I really feel for their fans, given what a huge impact they had for so many people.

It's tougher to separate your feelings from your response when it's music that really resonated with you. I'm still trying to process how I feel about Swans, and haven't listened to them since I learned of the accusation against Gira.

I don't want to sound trite, but it really does seem safer to just listen to music by women/trans/non-binary folx these days. Less opportunity for future disappointment.

personally, i think it's totally fine to "have a bad vibe" about someone, and then acknowledge it when you are proved correct. Like, I have had those "bad vibes" about so many people who turn out to be shitty. I think it's a valuable instinct to have tbh, especially when you are a type of person that is likely to be considered "prey." And maybe, because one is in the "prey" category, one tends to have honed these instincts more than someone who isn't or wasn't? I think there's a way of communicating this gracefully and sensitively that doesn't give off "blame the victim" connotations. ... though it is challenging.

― sarahell

when it comes to the danger of being abused, a "vibe" is often the only warning we get. i trust my gut when it comes to people because i don't really have a lot of other risk mitigation strategies to call on.

i think there's another aspect to the "vibe" thing. the big flaw about current handling of abuse allegations is that nothing gets talked about unless it's in its most extreme form. frankly, some of the most harmful forms of sexual abuse are the ones that _aren't_ actionable. let's say you know a guy and he really really really likes to sniff women's hair. that's creepy, ok? somebody goes up to me and says "hey your hair is beautiful, is it ok if i smell it", i'm gonna get creeped out. am i going to tell him that? hell no. there's a really good chance that he's gonna go off on me and explain at me how inappropriate it is for me to tell him his behavior made me feel uncomfortable, and prevailing patriarchal social norms will absolutely back him up on that. like it's pretty unambiguous, i do that and everybody will act like i'm the one that's wronged him.

so what do i do? if my women friends are lucky, i tell them, so they can take appropriate steps to protect themselves. but it's gotta be kept secret, because if men find out all of a sudden we're conducting a smear campaign against a guy who has DONE NOTHING WRONG based on innuendo and hearsay.

and sometimes - not most of the time, most of the time we never know the weirdo who likes to sniff women's hair as anything more than the weirdo who likes to sniff women's hair - we find out something else, find out that he was doing something super awful. and because we're the ones who are responsible, the ones who are always responsible for everything, when something like that happens i feel terrible. i knew he was a creep. i knew he was doing stuff that wasn't right. i should have done more. i should have said more. i should have been more open with other women about it.

and what comes out is "i always had a bad vibe about that guy".

Kate, I read a fascinating article once that basically suggested "gossip" amongst women is an informal information sharing and safety network, i.e. "stay away film that guy, he's a creep". Which is why patriarchy likes to dismiss "gossip" as childish. It's an attempt to diminish and demean one of the only tools we have to keep ourselves safe.

*from that guy

Anyway, no problem quitting Arcade Fire, Swans, Jane’s Addiction, Crystal Castles. It won’t bankrupt them but there’s so much more to discover that I can leave the assholes behind. I hope their victims are believed and find some reward for their courage by making the world more difficult for predators.

Anyway, no problem quitting Jane’s Addiction

― assert (matttkkkk)

the easiest addiction to quit

i'm not going to say i got a "bad vibe" from them but the video for "been caught stealin'" always made me uncomfortable. in retrospect it's clearly the way portraying someone dressing as a woman in order to shoplift perpetuates the toxic "deceptive trans" stereotype.

Glad you have "no problem" moving on but a lot of people will feel differently. Esp those who have an intense emotional connection with the music. Your stance seems unnecessarily dismissive of those who will find it a real struggle to just "quit" what may have been a favourite band. I really feel for those people, even if personally I never connected wth the music myself.

Especially in the case of Crystal Castles where the victim is also a band member.

Kate, I read a fascinating article once that basically suggested "gossip" amongst women is an informal information sharing and safety network, i.e. "stay away film that guy, he's a creep". Which is why patriarchy likes to dismiss "gossip" as childish. It's an attempt to diminish and demean one of the only tools we have to keep ourselves safe.

― The Ghost Club

the article is right - gossip absolutely _is_ an informal information sharing and safety network! it's also a _poor_ substitute for justice. it is _very easy_ for misinformation and disinformation to spread via these means and difficult to control its spread. rumor, innuendo, and hearsay are not things one can build a justice system upon. unfortunately, these are the only tools we have access to :(

Yeah, that's a tough one. Feels like erasing a victim to erase a perpetrator. But you could also see the Crystal Castles albums as documents of abuse, which would never be ok to engage with. It's a super hard call.

Xp that was in response to Van Horn Street obvs

Yeah, that's a tough one. Feels like erasing a victim to erase a perpetrator. But you could also see the Crystal Castles albums as documents of abuse, which would never be ok to engage with. It's a super hard call.

― The Ghost Club

it's a personal call, but i again want to push back on the "Abusers are Bad People who do Bad Things to Victims" narrative. that's not my _experience_ of abuse. pete townshend to me is a fascinating example. like it's a matter of public record that he was a member of an underground internet site which trafficked child abuse images, and that's just, like, ok, apparently, because he came out there and said (truthfully, as far as i know) "i'm a victim of child abuse and i'm working on an album about it".

i don't find it helpful, as an abuse victim, to be defined as a Victim. like, the whole framing is kind of fucked up, the whole basic frame of "is listening to a crystal castles record supporting an abuser, is not listening to a crystal castles album erasing a victim", i mean, this is fucking chicken sandwich levels of morality here. the whole thing is fucked, it doesn't make a just world for me to say "well i'm not going to listen to Arcade Fire" records anymore" any more than my choosing to use energy-efficient lightbulbs will create climate justice. it's an individual choice. the fact that i personally don't feel comfortable listening to magma records anymore doesn't do a fucking thing to end fascism.

Agree Kate, It's completely a personal call. Selling a Crystal Castles CD won't do a thing to end abuse, I agree. But I just couldn't have it in my house, because of what it brought up for me.

I agree victim is shitty language. As a victim of domestic abuse, I don't like the term. But really, what alternatives are there? I hate survivor. I'm not a survivor. Some days I'm barely coping with my trauma. That's not surviving. But I think the real issue is being defined solely as a victim. I was a victim - in specific circumstances, with ongoing consequences - but that's not all I am. I'm also a partner, a mum, a fierce non-binary queer woman etc. None of these things alone defines me. I'm all these things and a shitload more. So I use the term, while acknowledging its significant limitations, for lack of a better alternative.

I don’t know who in Jane’s Addiction did something fucked up but I’m guessing the answer is “anyone but Perkins”

I agree victim is shitty language. As a victim of domestic abuse, I don't like the term. But really, what alternatives are there? I hate survivor. I'm not a survivor. Some days I'm barely coping with my trauma. That's not surviving. But I think the real issue is being defined solely as a victim. I was a victim - in specific circumstances, with ongoing consequences - but that's not all I am. I'm also a partner, a mum, a fierce non-binary queer woman etc. None of these things alone defines me. I'm all these things and a shitload more. So I use the term, while acknowledging its significant limitations, for lack of a better alternative.

― The Ghost Club

right, it's being defined _solely_ as a victim that i don't do great with, i absolutely own that i am a victim but that doesn't erase all of the other things I am.

Ghost Club I absolutely adored the first AF album and closely identified with it. And the first two Crystal Castles, and the moodier Jane’s stuff like Three Days. Swans blew me away when I saw them perform and I think The Seer is an outstanding record. These are artists it significantly hurts to let go of, for me, but saying “no problem” is my way of acknowledging that some things are far more important than my enjoyment of music.

Assert, thanks for clarifying. It's a pretty personal and nuanced issue (see that whole art v artist thread) so it's important to reflect that in the conversation. I did feel "no problem" was a bit flippant and simplistic in the context. I much prefer your more personal and reflective take.

I don’t know who in Jane’s Addiction did something fucked up but I’m guessing the answer is “anyone but Perkins”

― Histoire de BradNelson (Whiney G. Weingarten), Sunday, August 28, 2022 6:42 PM (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink

iirc the discussion was over on a Jane's Addiction thread about Perry and Casey doing drugs and having sex with Xiola, who at the time they met was underage and later died of an overdose at 18.

like how often is a white woman's "bad vibe" targeted towards someone Black

― Murgatroid, Sunday, August 28, 2022 1:35 PM (six hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

This is an issue that has come up in True Crime circles in recent years. Examples are brought up of, for example, women who were set up to go on a date with someone, but then got a bad vibe off the guy and bailed. Not just like "he chewed with his mouth open" bad vibe, but "raised the hackles on their neck" or some other deep down primal feeling. Then years later the women see the guy on the news because it turns out was a Big Serial Killer and he went out and killed some other woman two nights later. I've read of a few of instances of this type of thing, and it seems instructive about listening to your gut and getting yourself out of a bad situation instead of being polite and continuing the date or whatever.

However, a counterpoint has definitely been made about some women equating "gut feeling" to "seeing a black guy in their white neighborhood".

Win Butler; centrist Dad

https://consequence.net/2018/03/win-butler-arcade-fires-everything-now-lackluster-response/amp/

I'm losing my mind at how poorly Win's comments (in the 2018 Guardian profile) have aged.

“We’re trying to connect, trying to get people in the back to engage,” Butler explains. “With the Reflektor tour one of the reasons for asking people to dress up for the shows was that we were then able to wear masks and be in the crowd and hang out and have a vibe of what’s going on. There’s a certain power in the rock star: they’re bigger than life and you can’t touch them. Being in the audience breaks that wall.”

the whole profile made him sound stupid as hell back then but now it reads as just laying the groundwork for the pivot to right-wing hackery that'll happen if he doesn't have the sense to retire in shame

This gets more and more heartbreaking the more I process it. Even the extremely unlikely "best-case" scenario for Win pretty much reeks. I wasn't a fan of their recent music, but I did become a convert who played the shit out of The Suburbs, went to their first MSG show and (incorrectly) believed they would follow it with more great things.

from Rolling Metal thread, re: Scott Kelly
----------------------------------------------

A STATEMENT FROM NEUROSIS

We cannot overstate the level of disgust and disappointment we feel for a man who we once called Brother.

As a band, we parted ways with Scott Kelly at the end of 2019 after learning about severe acts of abuse he committed towards his family over the previous years. In the past, Scott had disclosed his marital difficulties and acts of verbal abuse, as well as his intention to get help and change his behaviors. The information we learned in 2019 made it clear Scott had crossed a line and there was no way back. We did not share this information out of respect for his wife’s direct request for privacy, and to honor the family’s wish not to let their experience become gossip in a music magazine. With Scott’s Facebook post of August 27, 2022 disclosing much of this information publicly, we can finally say what we believe needs to be said.

For the last twenty years we have lived far apart from one another and only saw Scott when meeting up to work on music or play shows. We had no idea what the reality was for his family when we were not around. By Scott's own admission, his abuse was intentional, targeted, and a closely guarded secret - even from those of us closest to him.

Once we learned of his abuse it was difficult to reconcile the horrible information with the person we thought we knew. It’s not surprising he hid the abuse for so long because it is a betrayal of our ethics as bandmates, partners, parents, and human beings.

Since 2019, we have made numerous attempts to contact Scott. We wanted to have an honest talk about the status of the band and find out how he and his family were doing, but he has refused to speak with us for three years. And, in what we now see clearly to be a pattern, Scott refused to take responsibility for his actions. Having been through so much with someone for more than 35 years, one would expect some amount of closure, or at the very least a response.

Now, without returning any of the calls, texts, or e-mails of his bandmates and friends, Scott has made a public post about the situation. To us, this decision seems like another attempt at manipulation, another opportunity for his narcissism to control the narrative. Don't allow Scott to make this about himself, it's about the abuse his family has suffered.

Usually, we would view public openness and honesty about mental illness as brave and even productive. We just don’t believe that is the case here.

There is nothing brave about systematically abusing your wife and children.

There is nothing brave about confessing wrongdoing when you have not done the work to change your behavior.

There is nothing brave about refusing to speak honestly, or speak at all, with one’s closest friends and bandmates, people who have supported you and stuck by you for most of your life.

Compared to the impact of Scott’s actions on his family, the impact on our band pales in significance. Nevertheless, with the heartbreak and horror we also grieve for the loss of our life’s work and a legacy that was sacred to us.

Again, our primary concern is for the safety and well-being of Scott’s wife and children, as well as anyone else in a similar situation. If someone you know is experiencing domestic violence or abuse, please reach out to one of the many local or national resources available. One national resource is:

National Domestic Violence Hotline 1-800-799-7233 www.thehotline.org

If you or someone you know is suffering from mental health issues that could make you a danger to yourself or others, please get help before you hurt yourself or the people you love.

One resource for that is:

www.988lifeline.org

This is the only statement we plan to make about this issue. In due course, when it's appropriate, we will provide more information about our future musical endeavors, but that time is not now.

― but also fuck you (unperson), Monday, August 29, 2022 9:37 AM bookmarkflaglink

one of my mutuals with him said "that was the polite version"

Full credit to them.

Sanford Parker's separate statement also key:

https://www.facebook.com/sanford.parker/posts/10221367118952623

The only time I check facebook these days is when someone calls me and says "did you see the crazy shit homeboy just posted?!" which leads me to my next topic.
In response to Scott Kelly’s post I would like to make it crystal clear that during the active years of Corrections House and Mirrors for Psychic Warfare I had no idea the level of abuse Scott was inflicting onto his family. He always talked about his “mental illness” and things he did in the past he regretted, but nothing like this.

Over the last 12 plus years he and I have spent countless time together. I would be with him every second of every day for months at a time, often just the two of us and I have never seen this side of him. Not even close. It’s truly mind-blowing his level and power of manipulation he has on people.

In January of 2020 Scott cut off all contact with me for no reason. I tried repeatedly reaching out via text, emails and phone calls and nothing. I tried several times reaching out to his wife but was told everything was ok. Then in March of 2021 she sent me a lengthy detailed email about the abuse she and the kids had experienced and it was honestly the most disturbing thing I have ever read, it made me physically ill. I wish I could unsee it. By that point though the damage had been done and as far as I knew they were away from him and safe.

I poured my heart and soul into Corrections House and Mirrors for Psychic Warfare and now they are rotten. I will never have the same pride for those bands I once did and that truly hurts. This has been hard for me to process over the past year, but by this point in my life I am used to it and I move on.

I see a lot of people praising him for his honesty and that’s total bullshit, he deserves no praise. I have no sympathy for Scott and neither should you. I do have much love for his family and I really hope they are able to heal and move forward.

I don't know the exact details of what Kelly did to his family, but what's especially sad is that it sounds like everyone was ready to give him a chance - like, they knew he had mental illness and were willing to be supportive if he could admit the harm coming out of it and work on himself, and instead he made more excuses and kept being a complete shit.

pic.twitter.com/K17AUTyRRX

— Celine Dijon (@JerilynJordanE) August 28, 2022

i think one of the things abusers understand the least, one of the biggest misconceptions, is that you can just admit what you did and apologize and then people have to forgive you. nobody has to forgive you. ever. opening up about what you've done, if you're honest about it, you're giving the people you tell the right to judge you, to reject you. tell someone that you abused them and they can never talk to you again, hate you forever, wish death upon you, for what you've done. they have the _right_ to do that. that's _just_. even if the person you're talking to wasn't the person you abused.

when a person abuses, they are responsible for the results of their actions. when someone owns up to having abused and apologizes, that gives others the _opportunity_ to forgive. if someone _isn't_ honest, _doesn't_ recognize what they've done is wrong, it is impossible to truly forgive them, it is only possible to excuse them. none of us ever _have_ to forgive, though. ever. the only reason forgiveness has meaning is because we _choose_ it.

that's really well put and thought-through, thank you