rolling #metoo thread for sexual harassment in the music industry so no one misses out when artists we don't give a fuck about like Tim Westwood and Bassnectar get caught

Guilty lol at:

Butler offered to put Pitchfork in contact with different women who had consensual sexual experiences with him in the past.

very bleak and depressing, even in his own version of events he comes across horribly

you ever not like a band because you just get that vibe from the people/a person playing the music?

he had a reputation for being a bit of an asshole but come on, you don't need to do this

Horrible story; and, not to make light of it, but the article contains an example of why writers need to be careful with their sentence structure:

Stella also claims that Butler sent her photos of his genitals against her wishes, and a friend of hers recalled seeing the photos in an interview with Pitchfork.

Yep definitely reread that one a few times

that particular interview got a lot of clicks

It’s really not the writer’s fault; Pitchfork should have copy editing, but there’s no sign that they do.

Through Heller, Butler offered to put Pitchfork in contact with different women who had consensual sexual experiences with him in the past.

can’t get over this part

that particular interview got a lot of clicks

or not

Win Butler dick pics not the draw they once would have been.

not sure why you're going for jokes itt, mccain, but lets not do that

This is sad, as I said. All men aren't bad but sometimes it sure does feel that way.

my experience is that men don't abuse because they're "good" or "bad" but because not only are they not held accountable for abuse (their victims are regularly held more accountable for the abuses cisgender men commit than the abusers themselves are), the things they're taught actively encourage them to engage in abusive behavior patterns with other people. which maybe is why one will see bizarre phenomena like win butler trying to give pitchfork the phone numbers of women he's had consensual sex with, as if what was at issue was his _character_ and not his _behavior_.

Neurosis singer Scott Kelly has admitted to engaging in "emotional, financial, verbal and physical abuse" of his wife and children.

Following the admission, Kelly announced that he is “100% permanently retired from being a professional musician." https://t.co/88MbcEW2tP pic.twitter.com/HZFGTCHv90

— CONSEQUENCE (@consequence) August 28, 2022

I feel really uncomfortable with the insinuation that there is a "vibe" someone can have that suggests they're a predator because the flip side of it is the myth of "well they seemed so nice and decent so surely they can't be guilty"

yeah, a lot of “not surprised because of vibes”-type reactions out there, just as annoying as “I never listened to this musical act/always hated them”

xxxpost the problem some have called out with Kelly's recent admission is that he fessed up to doing the same thing to his family 5 years ago, promising to be better. it's alluded to here in this article: https://loudwire.com/neurosis-scott-kelly-mental-illness-struggle-dont-be-ashamed-get-help/

hoping he's serious now and this isn't a narcissistic attempt to use the incident to make himself look noble. (I don't know enough about Scott Kelly to say taht's the case, by any means).

Tbf in Butler's case he was always so polarizing that there already are a lot of genuine 'I never liked him' takes out there any time he's in the news, so of course no time like the present for those to get aired again.

the real reason I am not a big fan of the 'bad vibes' thing is it's often misapplied to people who are socially awkward but fundamentally harmless.

My objection is that it seems smug — truth is the offenders could be anyone who possesses 0 boner control with access to impressionable admirers

That’s a zero not an O— zero boner control

It’s always the people you most expect

La Lechera otm

thx Neando for context on that Scott Kelly story

I feel like I’ve been hearing rumours about him being a creep for years now. His rebuttals on this article certainly doesn’t help his case.

His “retrospective negging” moves are astounding – “I realized she had a tattoo of my band, which honestly felt a little weird,” etc.

Mr. Bundy offered to put us in contact with different women he met and didn’t murder

And all this as “communicated with Pitchfork via a New York-based crisis public relations expert” makes it more absurd. Several people filtered that response and thought it was appropriate and exonerated him somehow.

yeah i can't believe how inept that crisis PR firm is

Kate's character v behaviour take, and Moka's Bundy quip, are both otm.

The contrast between this Win Butler story and this Scott Kelly story is wild. But I’m still not clear about the specifics of the Win Butler accusations. The Pitchfork article includes a few paragraphs about power dynamics but it’s unclear how any of that related to these situations.

I’m also surprised by the number of people talking about this that are focusing on cheating rather than sending (possibly) unsolicited dick pics.

I don’t read that into any of the posts itt, and the power dynamics are so obvious that the writer of the Pitchfork piece probably didn’t think it necessary to explicate.

But I’m still not clear about the specifics of the Win Butler accusations.

there's alleged sexual assaults mentioned, on top of the unsolicited sexting and generally being predatory towards fans

The Pitchfork article includes a few paragraphs about power dynamics but it’s unclear how any of that related to these situations.

some of the victims' stories talk about how power dynamics were relevant to their situation, it's not hard to understand

La Lechera is 100% otm. I resent the implication that I liked (now very much past tense) Arcade Fire's music because I lacked the ability to discern Win Butler's personal shittiness. They didn't fool me with their music, they fooled me with power; it took concerted efforts of multiple people (his wife, other bandmates, presumably mgmt, PR, street team, etc) to keep his extra-musical behavior out of the headlines for this long. Fuck you if you think your superior taste means you can treat this like an occasion for jokes.

(Yes I'm very angry, and yes I'm even more disappointed.)

hoping he's serious now and this isn't a narcissistic attempt to use the incident to make himself look noble. (I don't know enough about Scott Kelly to say taht's the case, by any means).

not to be annoying, but, I've got a number of mutual IRL friends with him, and my instinct is that he's probably gotten a lot of "encouragement" to take accountability and also quit before he gets canceled/called out.

sorry if my personal reflection offends anyone. i'm not trying to snap on anybody or establish any sort of moral hierarchy whatsoever. that was not my intention. just had a bit of an "AHA!" moment because i've never liked the guy or his music. i certainly don't judge or begrudge anyone who did or still does. i just thought it was funny that, even at the peak of late-2000s arcade fire hysteria, i could never get into their music because of something i just wasn't able to put my finger on. just a bad vibe, i guess. i still don't know what was initially preventing me from enjoying their music, but it now seems appropriate to continue ignoring it.

anyway.☮️

personally, i think it's totally fine to "have a bad vibe" about someone, and then acknowledge it when you are proved correct. Like, I have had those "bad vibes" about so many people who turn out to be shitty. I think it's a valuable instinct to have tbh, especially when you are a type of person that is likely to be considered "prey." And maybe, because one is in the "prey" category, one tends to have honed these instincts more than someone who isn't or wasn't? I think there's a way of communicating this gracefully and sensitively that doesn't give off "blame the victim" connotations. ... though it is challenging.

and as far as this goes:

the real reason I am not a big fan of the 'bad vibes' thing is it's often misapplied to people who are socially awkward but fundamentally harmless.

I've definitely seen that happen, too, and have friends that have been the fundamentally harmless dudes ... and for me, it's about being careful re the application, and not being a jerk or bully.

a big concern about having a "bad vibe" about someone is how often, and not saying this about you Sara, but in general, is how often they are based on existing prejudices, subconscious or not

like how often is a white woman's "bad vibe" targeted towards someone Black

not to be annoying, but, I've got a number of mutual IRL friends with him, and my instinct is that he's probably gotten a lot of "encouragement" to take accountability and also quit before he gets canceled/called out.

― sarahell, Sunday, August 28, 2022 12:44 PM bookmarkflaglink

That's fair! I don't know much about the situation but it would make sense in context

thank you for mentioning that -- because I was thinking of double posting to add "not being a jerk or bully or racist" ...

but because the context(s) are arcade fire dude and neurosis dude ... who are both white ... i didn't immediately go there

personally, i think it's totally fine to "have a bad vibe" about someone, and then acknowledge it when you are proved correct. Like, I have had those "bad vibes" about so many people who turn out to be shitty. I think it's a valuable instinct to have tbh, especially when you are a type of person that is likely to be considered "prey." And maybe, because one is in the "prey" category, one tends to have honed these instincts more than someone who isn't or wasn't? I think there's a way of communicating this gracefully and sensitively that doesn't give off "blame the victim" connotations. ... though it is challenging.

― sarahell, Sunday, August 28, 2022 10:12 AM

thank you for this— and i obviously find it very otm.

again: i don't want to come off like i'm turning my nose up at anybody. if anything, i need to be called out if i'm coming across insensitive. i certainly don't mean to, but i don't always know the best way to do that.

Just remembered this from Butler: “I googled her and knew that she was 18.”

If you find yourself saying that phrase to a reporter, it should be one hell of a wake-up call

Yeah, that kind of jumped out. All of his defenses just basically make him look like more of a creep.

eh, there might be some contexts where that is totally acceptable ....this is not one of those.

The other thing to say about the “bad vibe” opinion is that it can look like victim blaming - they should have been able to pick up on it to avoid the situation. Not implying that it’s the reason such things were said here, but perhaps another reason why people find it objectionable.

I never liked Arcade Fire's music. It's just bland. But I don't think it's helpful to take an "I feel vindicated" stance in these situations. Adopting an attitude of "never cared, moving on" is disrespectful both to the victims, and the people who loved Arcade Fire's music. The "always got bad vibes" stance can be equally dismissive, and as pointed out, can also be victim blamey.

I think it's important to consciously separate how you feel about an artist's music, from your response when something this heinous comes out. It's a tough balancing act, but I guess where I've landed is: I never cared about AF, but I really feel for their fans, given what a huge impact they had for so many people.

It's tougher to separate your feelings from your response when it's music that really resonated with you. I'm still trying to process how I feel about Swans, and haven't listened to them since I learned of the accusation against Gira.

I don't want to sound trite, but it really does seem safer to just listen to music by women/trans/non-binary folx these days. Less opportunity for future disappointment.

personally, i think it's totally fine to "have a bad vibe" about someone, and then acknowledge it when you are proved correct. Like, I have had those "bad vibes" about so many people who turn out to be shitty. I think it's a valuable instinct to have tbh, especially when you are a type of person that is likely to be considered "prey." And maybe, because one is in the "prey" category, one tends to have honed these instincts more than someone who isn't or wasn't? I think there's a way of communicating this gracefully and sensitively that doesn't give off "blame the victim" connotations. ... though it is challenging.

― sarahell

when it comes to the danger of being abused, a "vibe" is often the only warning we get. i trust my gut when it comes to people because i don't really have a lot of other risk mitigation strategies to call on.

i think there's another aspect to the "vibe" thing. the big flaw about current handling of abuse allegations is that nothing gets talked about unless it's in its most extreme form. frankly, some of the most harmful forms of sexual abuse are the ones that _aren't_ actionable. let's say you know a guy and he really really really likes to sniff women's hair. that's creepy, ok? somebody goes up to me and says "hey your hair is beautiful, is it ok if i smell it", i'm gonna get creeped out. am i going to tell him that? hell no. there's a really good chance that he's gonna go off on me and explain at me how inappropriate it is for me to tell him his behavior made me feel uncomfortable, and prevailing patriarchal social norms will absolutely back him up on that. like it's pretty unambiguous, i do that and everybody will act like i'm the one that's wronged him.

so what do i do? if my women friends are lucky, i tell them, so they can take appropriate steps to protect themselves. but it's gotta be kept secret, because if men find out all of a sudden we're conducting a smear campaign against a guy who has DONE NOTHING WRONG based on innuendo and hearsay.

and sometimes - not most of the time, most of the time we never know the weirdo who likes to sniff women's hair as anything more than the weirdo who likes to sniff women's hair - we find out something else, find out that he was doing something super awful. and because we're the ones who are responsible, the ones who are always responsible for everything, when something like that happens i feel terrible. i knew he was a creep. i knew he was doing stuff that wasn't right. i should have done more. i should have said more. i should have been more open with other women about it.

and what comes out is "i always had a bad vibe about that guy".

Kate, I read a fascinating article once that basically suggested "gossip" amongst women is an informal information sharing and safety network, i.e. "stay away film that guy, he's a creep". Which is why patriarchy likes to dismiss "gossip" as childish. It's an attempt to diminish and demean one of the only tools we have to keep ourselves safe.

*from that guy

Anyway, no problem quitting Arcade Fire, Swans, Jane’s Addiction, Crystal Castles. It won’t bankrupt them but there’s so much more to discover that I can leave the assholes behind. I hope their victims are believed and find some reward for their courage by making the world more difficult for predators.