Is Bob Dylan overrated?

xp love how he sings that.

Yeah, always liked the music, but words have always been somewhat problematic, as some noted when it first came out. Here's what I eventually came to, and added to a blogpost about seeing Renaldo and Clara, with some other updates:

2015 update from something written for somewhere else:

I was just thinking today of how few white music stars have written songs criticizing the way police and prosecutors treat black people. "Hurricane" was one star taking up the cause of another, as was pointed out at the time of its release---but that's yet more baggage pulled along with "This is the story of the Hurricane," the continuing through-line: even if he's got the means and acquires big name support, and the case gets thrown out---so, try, try again, if you've decided that you must make an example of him. The song covers the part of the process that had already happened by 1975, and of course he ended up spending decades in prison, despite the Madison Square Garden benefit, despite much long-term grassroots support thereafter. Not to say he was an angel, not to say he was even innocent, necessarily---but when the rest of the prosecution's case(s) fell apart, they went back to the race card: if nothing else, he was *motivated* to avenge the recent death of another black man, by killing whites. This argument was thrown out of court, and---despite any headline-grabbing aspect of Dylan's motives, despite the rich male sneering at "Miss Patty Valentine," other stuff---the song's point seemed sharper than ever. "The trial was a pig circus" that kept coming back to town, and "he never had a chance"---to avoid the re-tries, not for a long, long time.
(And the section of Dylan’s ”Hurricane”-ear travelling documentary-sketch mix Renaldo and Clara, in which black citizens of Newark comment on and argue about the Carter case on the street---I’ve never seen anything else like that in a movie*. (Dylan’s earlier “George Jackson”, with its highly- unusual-for-197i mix of black-associated gospel voices and white-associated steel guitar (long before the Sacred Steel movement was known by most), and “Sometimes I think this whole world/Is one big prison yard/Some of us are prisoners/The rest of us are guards” seems much less problematic than some of “Hurricane”’s lyrics. But still.)

"Hurricane" is my favourite Dylan track (and Desire for fav album) but not because of the lyrics. Which probably alone indicates I'm very distant from Dylan's work.

It's got its strengths, especially as a track. And it's not like a lot of other chart toppers were pushing political songs, esp. re race, at that point in the early-mid-70s.

How much of "Hurricane" came from Levy? I know some believe he really pushed for narrative or dramatic songs given his theatrical background - "Joey" may be the worse example but then again I do like "Isis" and "Black Diamond Bay" a lot.

Another reason Claudia should write a book, though some attorneys might not agree.

The live version of "Isis" from the Biograph box set is smoking.

Oh yeah.

"That son of a bitch is brave and gettin' braver
We want to put his ass in stir
We want to pin this triple MURRRR-der....
on HIM!
He ain't no Gentleman JIIIIIIIIM!!!"

ugh

― birdistheword, Thursday, July 28, 2022 3:23 PM (two hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

Sorry, but this is awesome as is his delivery throughout most of the song.

More specifically, I've always found thrilling that little downshift he does from the aggression and anger of the first quoted line (and the line that precedes that) to the sneering of the next two lines quoted.

I should clarify, I like his performance on "Hurricane" - there's so much momentum that even when the bad rhymes go flying by, it never sinks the track because Dylan's still barreling down this long story. I don't think it's a great song, but I think it's a great track because of the way Dylan delivers it. (I probably shouldn't have exaggerated how he sung those lines just to draw out the rhyme more.)

The live version of "Isis" from the Biograph box set is smoking.
very true

a stellar song, hilariously rocking

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92FsJVK04WM

from the "this song is called IsizZSSZZss" you know it's going to be good

Bob's phrasing on both Hurricane and Isis make the songs work, stating the obv but he's one of the best to ever do it, so playful, so funny, sharp

so while we're at it the "potatoes" in Million Dollar Bash also a prime example
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGUQgty1e3g

but yeah on one hand Hurricane is great and cinematic, what an opening, but some of the writing is awful clumsy, oh well

worst narrative song in the catalog: Lily, Rosemary and the Jack of Hearts

So wrong

Very wrong

I haven't weighed in yet? Pity. He's not the most overrated. He's the worst ever of all time.

bzzzzt

worst narrative song in the catalog: Lily, Rosemary and the Jack of Hearts

Wow, that is very surprising. I think it's one of his best "story" songs.

It just doesn’t make sense, I mean, what were all these people doing in a low-rent town with only one diamond mine?

There was quite a haul in the bank vault.

The socioeconomic effects of a town dependent on a single diamond mine is too complex for me to untangle.

on its own, i enjoy Lily, but it's my least favorite on Blood on the Tracks, and also the longest track at nearly 9 minutes. Idiot Wind is nearly 8 minutes long, but you barely notice it because it's Idiot Wind. also, for the longest time my Blood on the Tracks playlist subbed in Up to Me, one of my favorite dylan songs, for Lily, and it somehow made the album even better!

"Idiot Wind" is a masterpiece on every level.

I was never that big a fan of Lily, I thought it a dumb genre exercise like Rocky Raccoon, until I realized it is v much of a piece with the narrative of Tangled up in Blue and other Dylan songs (i.e. three or more romantic characters with an uncertain shifting viewpoint).

I forgot, I didn't like "Lily" either until I heard the NY version, which becomes this very intimate bit of storytelling - I love how that last verse comes across on this version. I can't find the original mix, which is a shame because it really needs that ambience that was added, including the right touch of echo, but here's the raw, bone-dry mix from the box set:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=achOGc4iKIo

I've also always found Lily more "impressive" than a song I could actually enjoy/engage with; will check out that mix.

FWIW: https://www.reddit.com/r/bobdylan/comments/cldhti/blood_on_the_tracks_test_pressing_cleanest/

But two warnings:

1) I actually don't like how the RSD release was mastered, it sounds a bit bright and strident - the previous bootleg of a clean, original acetate was much warmer and more balanced EQ wise.

2) The RSD release was also poorly pressed so you still have these weird bits of distortion caused by things like non-fill, which kind of sounds like a zipper

Oh yeah, this is much more "engaging" way of performing the song...

"Isis" can be a lot of fun live---look up bob dylan isis live 1976 and you get quite a few, duh---always liked this '75 one from Renaldo and Clara, with the facepaint, big hat, mom jeans, gestures, v. authoritative, barks: "to wash my clothes DOWN." Reminding me in a way of "Clothes Line Saga."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqR3w2_m0u4

Yeah, the Renaldo & Clara film performance of "Isis" is absolutely legendary, one of the great Dylan performances caught on film or videotape.

That show in particular - December 4, 1975 - is one of the great Dylan concerts. If you want some Dylan shows but not turn it into a giant hobby, that's the one show I'd recommend from the 1970s for non-collecting fans.

This one's for Leonard!

xps the NY version is a sonic improvement, but the story just isn't a lot of fun to follow imo

Brownsville Girl, now there's a fun and fragmented narrative!

"Brownsville Girl" is hilarious. "New Danville Girl" is a better recording of it (see the last Bootleg Series installment, Springtime in New York or just click below) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tdNxP7w07NQ

Knocked Out Loaded flat out sucks. He never liked it and he didn't even like making it, he was virtually going through the motions and doing it as contractual filler. Partly for that reason, "Brownsville Girl" stands out on its own, a great anomaly he threw into the heap. (He only had it because he had written it with Sam Shepherd a few years prior.)

What's interesting about "Lily" is that it's slotted into Blood on the Tracks - solid conceptually as well in quality, I think those surroundings create a context for "Lily" that's unavoidable. It's possible Dylan was able to write a lengthy and major composition that creatively had no relation in his mind to the other dozen he finished at the same time, but regardless, he chose to slot it in with them and they were originally recorded in the same manner. Jakob Dylan gave a pretty succinct assessment of that album - "the songs are my parents talking" - and that carries into "Lily" when I hear the NY version in its entirety.

You've got this Western fantasy that feels like the type of thing Dylan likes to indulge within his own imagination, but it can also reflect how much a rock n' roll celebrity's life can play out like a wild fantasy. It also reflects aspects of a passionate relationship that can play like a fantasy as well, at least emotionally or psychologically. In a way, it feels like the kind of wild ride an otherwise anonymous person like Sara has been roped into once she and Dylan became a couple. To be clear, I don't think of the details themselves as direct metaphors to anything in their personal lives, this is just the general impression I have as the song unfurls. With that in mind, it makes the ending a little poignant - he's lingering on this woman and the thoughts swirling inside. He gives you an idea of what she's thinking about, but he doesn't write out the exact thoughts - it seems more important that he's observing her perspective. That kind of defines a lot of close relationships - sometimes you know that they're thinking about something in particular, but even then, you can only speculate what exactly those thoughts may be. It feels like an interesting way to close the song, and it works really well in setting the mood for "If You See Her, Say Hello," which is about someone who is very present in mind but not in person - a narrative like that benefits from the tension of wanting to know what's going on in their thoughts.

Sam SHEPARD

xp Awesome post, bird!

Yeah, great post Bird! My beef with Lily has mostly been that it seems like the outlier on an album that is otherwise so thematically consistent. I’m still not sure that I read a strong connection, but I’ll definitely be thinking of it next time I listen, and I appreciate having a new angle on things.

For some reason my chief image with Lily has always been the cover of the Basement Tapes

Aw, thanks!

great post indeed!

I still don't really enjoy the song, reads like a roman a clef too convoluted to say something relevant - but anyway, I'll stop my harping now

I always took the song (on BOTT) to be sort of purposefully arch and "distancing" – the narrative is almost impossible to follow, the structure feels endlessly repetitive, that damn organ keeps going, lol. The personified playing-card characters bring "Alice in Wonderland" to mind; it's like you've suddenly fallen thru a hole in the album into this other world for nine minutes, which couldn't be more different from the rest of it (at least on the surface) – impersonal, impenetrable, highly resistant to interpretation, "wtf is this doing here?," etc. And then you come back up for air, with "If You See Her...". It's almost like the album was saying, "Don't get TOO comfortable."

(or like Dylan decided to pull a boss move, and slap his most "experimental" song right in the middle of his most "conventional, relatable" album)

I am on record as saying that I hate "Lily..." for its extraneous length and repetitive nature. Similarly I hate Elvis Costello's "Glitter Gulch" for the same reasons.

I am not going to apologize for either of those opinions. My musical universe is large and contains multitudes but I am leery of a nine-minute song with three chords in it, sorry.

OK but have you met The Fall’s “Garden”??

I have finally recovered from covid enough to join in the great ilx Lily debate, hopefully coherently!

I wouldn't call it my favorite song on Blood on the Tracks, but I have always felt like it belongs there - even anchors the album, in a way I'm not sure I can explain.

Blood on the Tracks gets billed as a breakup album, but it's also very much a relationship album, in the sense that it's full of these shifting connections and power structures and lines of influence between people. This is probably most true of "Tangled Up in Blue" where the relationship story threads its way through all these fading friendships and remnants of the sixties-hippie social scene, but the album as a whole is never one-sided in the way that breakup albums can be: even at its angriest you always get a very clear sense of the other person as a person, with her own feelings and interests and motivations and capacity for suffering. And you have that push-pull all through, between the breakup album and the "stories about people" album - the intense personal resentment and anger and grief threatening to swamp the singer's capacity for empathy, and empathy reluctantly coming through in the end.

So there's something sort of stately and allegorical about the album pausing in the middle for this story that is very much not personal, where you have these four archetypal figures, two men, two women: the bully, the trickster, the tragic figure, the survivor, all interlinked with each other. And I think it also balances the album that "Lily" is fundamentally a story about two women. Big Jim and the Jack of Hearts are both, in their different ways, more powerful than Lily and Rosemary, but it's Lily and Rosemary who come across as people.

Also I like the way the story seems fragmented and surreal if you just let it flow by you, but if you look at it closely you can see all the elements of the story happening simultaneously, like a cross-section of a building with a different little set-piece in each room.

you can see all the elements of the story happening simultaneously, like a cross-section of a building with a different little set-piece in each room.

was it on ilx recently that i saw something about dylan saying (or someone saying, of him) that one reason he enjoyed painting was because it was capable of expressing multiple narratives, perspectives, stories, all at once, rather than linearly (as with music)?

Great post, Lily – glad you’re feeling better!

Thank you!

Yes and yes to both parts of that, morrisp, also yes to Karl: I was just thinking, while reading Lily's last sentence, that I'd once seen a comment by Dylan about writing this album while taking art lessons, or at least while thinking of them, of the sense of time that he absorbed from his painting classes.
bird's and these other takes all pertain---can't think of another song written with this approach, but some movies: it's *kind of* like Bonnie and Clyde, with the two couples, but not that close? I think I was always distracted from the lyrics by what I recall is floppy music, also Dylan's vocalizing getting too cuet and yeah 9 minutes of that. But I like the idea of it as oblique stroke counterpiece to rest of alb, will listen again (it's even counter to the other counter, "Idiot Wind," where he risks burning up all the sympathy he's courted on here, by ripping off his mask or clamping another one on top of it, as his attorney crawls under the table, and his shrink nods approvingly).

You get into a situation working with a bunch of working cats and they have a way of doing things, and you don't want to upset the herd. You want to fall in, and that didn't happen. Instead of me coming around to what they were doing, Bob played bass for a little bit with me playing drums. I remember thinking, "Jeez, he doesn't play bass. What's Tony going to do?"

Winston Williams, now touring as one of the MC5, talks about being dropped cold into the Endless Tour: great stories incl. some links, and yes a show download at the end:

https://dylanlive.substack.com/p/winston-watson-talks-drumming-for?utm_source=email

Thanks for the link! I think he wrote a book about touring with Dylan that was published around 2009. I mentioned it in passing to a colleague at the time who crazily turned out to be a former musician who knew him. IIRC he said he remembers when he was dropped by Dylan because he was really upset and kind of needed the gig for financial reasons. At least it looks like he turned out okay.

My mistake, it was a DVD not a book: https://www.popmatters.com/72556-bob-dylan-never-ending-tour-diaries-drummer-winston-watsons-incredibl-2496033101.html

dow, thanks for the absolutely great link. A lot of fun stories about a period I didn't know much about.