Charlie Watts vs John Bonham

I'm not the world's biggest Ringo fan, but I prefer Ringo to Charlie. And I prefer Mick Avory to both of them. And I agree Bill Ward is the most swinging of all of this thread's aforementioned. But I also agree that John Bonham was a once in a lifetime talent akin to Tony Williams.

I think a lot of jazz drummers, when listening or reacting to rock drummers, are kind of taken aback with the novelty. Like, I didn't know you could play that simply! I forget which Steely Dan guitarist it was, maybe Larry Carlton, who supposedly had never heard the Beatles before.

Haha check the title of Carlton's first solo album from the 60s.

It doesn't matter if one drummer is superior to the other. If Bonham couldn't drum on a Stones song, then the question's meaningless.

I think Bonham would sound pretty good on Can't You Hear Me Knockin'. I think Watts would have keeled over after 90 seconds of Achilles Last Stand.

Yeah, I'm no drummer but I don't really see why Bonham couldn't drum on "Beast of Burden".

I honestly have no idea if Bonham could have played well with the Stones. That huge, Led Zeppelin Bonham sound would be too overpowering with the Stones, but I'm sure he could play lighter, be recorded differently etc. It doesn't seem like an entirely implausible pairing, much less so than Watts with Zeppelin

i'm not sure "fool in the rain" shows that bonham has the affinity for latin beats that's he'd have needed on knockin'.

lol, Charlie's "latin" stuff on the jam at the end of that one is the most rudimentary bullshit

it's really whether your intent is to make people dance or to nod meaningfully.

The new Spitz bio is as high on Bonham's skills as Bonham was, period.

Haha check the title of Carlton's first solo album from the 60s.

ha, yeah. It was one of those cats, though, I'll have to check ...

As a non-drummer, what strikes me about Bonham and Watts is predicting when they hit their cymbals. Bonham is especially hard to predict.

I was admiring what Charlie did on “fingerprint file” the other day

As a (former?) drummer, I can usually make sense of where Bonham places his hits, except on stuff like "Kashmir," where there really is no pattern (afaict). Watts, though, like I said earlier, sometimes crashes on random third beats, which is weird. I'll try to find an example.

Well, here's something similar:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWphbRxtAgE

Listen to how he hits a China around the 25 second mark, it's just not where I expect it to be.

But that goes back to me joking that he plays like he's never heard the song before. Like in "Monkey Man," during the melodic bridge that starts around 2:34, he keeps switching between cymbals - riding a ride/crash to hi-hat and back to a ride/crash - like he has no idea where the song is going or how many times around it's supposed to go:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Zbnvh6I4k4

Of course, that off-kilter sensibility is part of what makes that song (and others) so killer.

It’s not impossible to imagine Charlie playing on “Good Times Bad Times” but the song immediately becomes kind of pedestrian. Bonham brought so much

I think Bonham had a more co-equal role in the music of Zeppelin with the other instruments, whereas Watts was more of a really good backing drummer who created a lot of vibe and feel. To keep with the jazz theme upthread, Bonham's role was more like that of Elvin Jones in the Coltrane Quartet, constantly adding to and conversing with the rest of the music, whereas Watts was more like Ed Thigpen in the Oscar Peterson Trio, creating a perfect backdrop for the more heavily featured elements of Mick/Keith. There aren't a lot of songs where I think of the Charlie drum part as a thing in itself, but there are a lot of songs I couldn't imagine without his parts.

Bonham got songwriting credit on many songs, yeah

This shouldn't even be a question. John Henry Bonham.

I love how Watts speeds up; “Honky Tonk Women” feels like it’s 1/3rd faster at the end than it was at the beginning. And of course there’s “Sway,” with a sense and degree of push-pull tension that no other musician could remotely replicate.

lol *feels like* it's 1/3rd faster? I think that's Miller playing cowbell at the start, to help Charlie along.

It definitely is. Charlie sometimes had trouble finding the one, which is why Miller assists on “Tumbling Dice.” And there’s a live recording of “Gimme Shelter” from 1973 where it takes him until the second verse to find the one (presumably due to confusion over Keith’s accents, rather than unfamiliarity, as they’d played it probably 100 times by then).

"Stairway to Heaven" would have been a too-long b-side without Bonham's timing.

Watts playing Stairway

I feel like this should be possible considering all the deep fake tech available

Sure, by making Watts sound like Bonham lol

will always take Stones over Zep (whom I love dearly, mind) but not entirely sure I’d be inclined listen to hours of just his drum tracks for the hell of it.

actually fuck that. maybe? lol

Bonham never hobbled a Zeppelin song the way Watts does "Get Off My Cloud"

(don’t love drums on Ruby tho)

i saw charlie leading a jazz band outdoors at lincoln center and there was one tune where he got turned around mid-song and never found his way back. i was a little embarrassed for him. i still pick him though.

Bonham did have the advantage of dying young.

best Charlie performances on RS records for me are on Some Girls/ Emotional/ Tattoo. probably has a lot to do w engineering but that’s my shit

John Bonham vs. Keith Moon is a much harder call. A coin toss, really.

I spent years in my bedroom – literally fucking years – listening to Bonham's drums and trying to emulate his swing or his behind-the-beat swagger or his speed or power. Not just memorizing what he did on those albums but getting myself into a place where I would have the same instinctual direction as he had.

--Dave Grohl

eh, who cares

John Bonham vs. Keith Moon is a much harder call. A coin toss, really.

i saw charlie leading a jazz band outdoors at lincoln center and there was one tune where he got turned around mid-song and never found his way back. i was a little embarrassed for him. i still pick him though.

I once saw Cindy Blackman completely lose the plot during a solo with Pharoah Sanders’ band in the mid 90s.

The fuck

Indeed

https://www.avclub.com/john-bonham-george-fludas-led-zeppelin-bonhamology-1849058797

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eef--qblm6A

Keith Moon vs. John Bonham POLL

Keith Moon vs. John Bonham POLL🕸

Good discussion in that thread.

_Bonham never hobbled a Zeppelin song the way Watts does "Get Off My Cloud"_


^slander

Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.

I loved reading this tribute to Charlie, especially Weinberg's:

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2021/aug/26/stewart-copeland-max-weinberg-on-charlie-watts-rolling-stones

I prefer Keith over Bonham, but this is horseshit, I love all three and they all bring something unique to the table. I don't want Bonham playing behind the Stones just as I wouldn't want Watts playing behind Zeppelin - changing any of the drummers like that would have fucked up the alchemy behind those records and those songs.

that doesn't mean mustard is better than stubbs bbq sauce

Otm

Bonham, and it isn't even close