It doesn't matter if one drummer is superior to the other. If Bonham couldn't drum on a Stones song, then the question's meaningless.
^^^ this
The only time I wish a band had dumped a major member was The Who with Daltrey after 1980.
― Malevolent Arugula (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, July 22, 2022 12:37 PM (fifteen minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink
Ha! Empty Glass and the Townshend-sung Face Dances demos and outtakes make a strong case for this.
And tying it in with the drumming discussion, of Keith Moon Elvin said, "The man's a drummer. Everything they play, he contains it." Tony Williams said, "He's beautiful. Totally free." And during a drum clinic Billy Cobham was giving in London, he invited Keith up to play. As Keith was playing, Cobham said in his ear, "I don't know what you're doing, but keep doing it."
I don't know what (or if) any of those drummers thought of Watts or Bonham...it's likely that Williams and Cobham probably dug them both to some degree.
― Montgomery Burns' Jazz (Tarfumes The Escape Goat), Friday, 22 July 2022 17:06 (one year ago) link
Plenty of other drummers recorded during the same years as Bonham though and don't sound like him, and I think the crappiest live recording will still show that he's got that sound. I love nerding out about the engineering but it's a lot easier when the sound coming out of the drums is already incredible & balanced.
I remember reading that he had to argue for letting everything ring early on, obviously he wouldn't sound the same if the drums were muted/taped or tea towel-ed up and close mic'ed.
― change display name (Jordan), Friday, July 22, 2022 12:54 PM (eleven minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink
Supposedly after the first 1974 session for Physical Graffiti, Bonham took engineer Ron Nevison aside to instruct him on how to mic his kit. Nevison was doing the close-miking thing which Bonham (rightly) knew was the wrong approach.
― Montgomery Burns' Jazz (Tarfumes The Escape Goat), Friday, 22 July 2022 17:10 (one year ago) link
I'm not the world's biggest Ringo fan, but I prefer Ringo to Charlie. And I prefer Mick Avory to both of them. And I agree Bill Ward is the most swinging of all of this thread's aforementioned. But I also agree that John Bonham was a once in a lifetime talent akin to Tony Williams.I think a lot of jazz drummers, when listening or reacting to rock drummers, are kind of taken aback with the novelty. Like, I didn't know you could play that simply! I forget which Steely Dan guitarist it was, maybe Larry Carlton, who supposedly had never heard the Beatles before.
― Josh in Chicago, Friday, 22 July 2022 17:10 (one year ago) link
Haha check the title of Carlton's first solo album from the 60s.
― No purposes. Sounds. (Sund4r), Friday, 22 July 2022 17:16 (one year ago) link
I think Bonham would sound pretty good on Can't You Hear Me Knockin'. I think Watts would have keeled over after 90 seconds of Achilles Last Stand.
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Friday, 22 July 2022 17:30 (one year ago) link
Yeah, I'm no drummer but I don't really see why Bonham couldn't drum on "Beast of Burden".
― No purposes. Sounds. (Sund4r), Friday, 22 July 2022 17:33 (one year ago) link
I honestly have no idea if Bonham could have played well with the Stones. That huge, Led Zeppelin Bonham sound would be too overpowering with the Stones, but I'm sure he could play lighter, be recorded differently etc. It doesn't seem like an entirely implausible pairing, much less so than Watts with Zeppelin
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Friday, 22 July 2022 17:34 (one year ago) link
i'm not sure "fool in the rain" shows that bonham has the affinity for latin beats that's he'd have needed on knockin'.
― Thus Sang Freud, Friday, 22 July 2022 17:35 (one year ago) link
lol, Charlie's "latin" stuff on the jam at the end of that one is the most rudimentary bullshit
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Friday, 22 July 2022 17:37 (one year ago) link
it's really whether your intent is to make people dance or to nod meaningfully.
― Thus Sang Freud, Friday, 22 July 2022 17:38 (one year ago) link
The new Spitz bio is as high on Bonham's skills as Bonham was, period.
― Malevolent Arugula (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, 22 July 2022 17:40 (one year ago) link
ha, yeah. It was one of those cats, though, I'll have to check ...
― Josh in Chicago, Friday, 22 July 2022 17:45 (one year ago) link
As a non-drummer, what strikes me about Bonham and Watts is predicting when they hit their cymbals. Bonham is especially hard to predict.
― Malevolent Arugula (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, 22 July 2022 17:47 (one year ago) link
I was admiring what Charlie did on “fingerprint file” the other day
― brimstead, Friday, 22 July 2022 17:50 (one year ago) link
As a (former?) drummer, I can usually make sense of where Bonham places his hits, except on stuff like "Kashmir," where there really is no pattern (afaict). Watts, though, like I said earlier, sometimes crashes on random third beats, which is weird. I'll try to find an example.
― Josh in Chicago, Friday, 22 July 2022 17:52 (one year ago) link
Well, here's something similar:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWphbRxtAgE
Listen to how he hits a China around the 25 second mark, it's just not where I expect it to be.
― Josh in Chicago, Friday, 22 July 2022 17:55 (one year ago) link
But that goes back to me joking that he plays like he's never heard the song before. Like in "Monkey Man," during the melodic bridge that starts around 2:34, he keeps switching between cymbals - riding a ride/crash to hi-hat and back to a ride/crash - like he has no idea where the song is going or how many times around it's supposed to go:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Zbnvh6I4k4
Of course, that off-kilter sensibility is part of what makes that song (and others) so killer.
― Josh in Chicago, Friday, 22 July 2022 18:01 (one year ago) link
It’s not impossible to imagine Charlie playing on “Good Times Bad Times” but the song immediately becomes kind of pedestrian. Bonham brought so much
― calstars, Friday, 22 July 2022 18:16 (one year ago) link
I think Bonham had a more co-equal role in the music of Zeppelin with the other instruments, whereas Watts was more of a really good backing drummer who created a lot of vibe and feel. To keep with the jazz theme upthread, Bonham's role was more like that of Elvin Jones in the Coltrane Quartet, constantly adding to and conversing with the rest of the music, whereas Watts was more like Ed Thigpen in the Oscar Peterson Trio, creating a perfect backdrop for the more heavily featured elements of Mick/Keith. There aren't a lot of songs where I think of the Charlie drum part as a thing in itself, but there are a lot of songs I couldn't imagine without his parts.
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Friday, 22 July 2022 19:39 (one year ago) link
Bonham got songwriting credit on many songs, yeah
― Malevolent Arugula (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, 22 July 2022 19:41 (one year ago) link
This shouldn't even be a question. John Henry Bonham.
― immodesty blaise (jimbeaux), Friday, 22 July 2022 21:00 (one year ago) link
I love how Watts speeds up; “Honky Tonk Women” feels like it’s 1/3rd faster at the end than it was at the beginning. And of course there’s “Sway,” with a sense and degree of push-pull tension that no other musician could remotely replicate.
― Montgomery Burns' Jazz (Tarfumes The Escape Goat), Friday, 22 July 2022 21:18 (one year ago) link
lol *feels like* it's 1/3rd faster? I think that's Miller playing cowbell at the start, to help Charlie along.
― Josh in Chicago, Friday, 22 July 2022 21:28 (one year ago) link
It definitely is. Charlie sometimes had trouble finding the one, which is why Miller assists on “Tumbling Dice.” And there’s a live recording of “Gimme Shelter” from 1973 where it takes him until the second verse to find the one (presumably due to confusion over Keith’s accents, rather than unfamiliarity, as they’d played it probably 100 times by then).
― Montgomery Burns' Jazz (Tarfumes The Escape Goat), Friday, 22 July 2022 21:40 (one year ago) link
"Stairway to Heaven" would have been a too-long b-side without Bonham's timing.
― immodesty blaise (jimbeaux), Friday, 22 July 2022 22:15 (one year ago) link
Watts playing Stairway
― calstars, Friday, 22 July 2022 22:25 (one year ago) link
I feel like this should be possible considering all the deep fake tech available
― calstars, Friday, 22 July 2022 22:26 (one year ago) link
Sure, by making Watts sound like Bonham lol
― immodesty blaise (jimbeaux), Saturday, 23 July 2022 00:06 (one year ago) link
will always take Stones over Zep (whom I love dearly, mind) but not entirely sure I’d be inclined listen to hours of just his drum tracks for the hell of it.
― no one wants to twerk anymore (will), Saturday, 23 July 2022 00:11 (one year ago) link
actually fuck that. maybe? lol
Bonham never hobbled a Zeppelin song the way Watts does "Get Off My Cloud"
― no one wants to twerk anymore (will), Saturday, 23 July 2022 00:16 (one year ago) link
(don’t love drums on Ruby tho)
― no one wants to twerk anymore (will), Saturday, 23 July 2022 00:17 (one year ago) link
i saw charlie leading a jazz band outdoors at lincoln center and there was one tune where he got turned around mid-song and never found his way back. i was a little embarrassed for him. i still pick him though.
― Thus Sang Freud, Saturday, 23 July 2022 00:21 (one year ago) link
Bonham did have the advantage of dying young.
― immodesty blaise (jimbeaux), Saturday, 23 July 2022 00:22 (one year ago) link
best Charlie performances on RS records for me are on Some Girls/ Emotional/ Tattoo. probably has a lot to do w engineering but that’s my shit
― no one wants to twerk anymore (will), Saturday, 23 July 2022 00:31 (one year ago) link
John Bonham vs. Keith Moon is a much harder call. A coin toss, really.
― immodesty blaise (jimbeaux), Saturday, 23 July 2022 00:32 (one year ago) link
I spent years in my bedroom – literally fucking years – listening to Bonham's drums and trying to emulate his swing or his behind-the-beat swagger or his speed or power. Not just memorizing what he did on those albums but getting myself into a place where I would have the same instinctual direction as he had.
--Dave Grohl
― immodesty blaise (jimbeaux), Saturday, 23 July 2022 00:33 (one year ago) link
eh, who cares
― calstars, Saturday, 23 July 2022 01:36 (one year ago) link
― calstars, Saturday, 23 July 2022 01:37 (one year ago) link
I once saw Cindy Blackman completely lose the plot during a solo with Pharoah Sanders’ band in the mid 90s.
― but also fuck you (unperson), Saturday, 23 July 2022 01:39 (one year ago) link
The fuck
Indeed
― immodesty blaise (jimbeaux), Saturday, 23 July 2022 01:41 (one year ago) link
https://www.avclub.com/john-bonham-george-fludas-led-zeppelin-bonhamology-1849058797
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eef--qblm6A
― Josh in Chicago, Saturday, 23 July 2022 01:57 (one year ago) link
Keith Moon vs. John Bonham POLL
― Halfway there but for you, Saturday, 23 July 2022 01:58 (one year ago) link
Keith Moon vs. John Bonham POLL🕸
― calstars, Saturday, 23 July 2022 02:01 (one year ago) link
Good discussion in that thread.
― immodesty blaise (jimbeaux), Saturday, 23 July 2022 02:04 (one year ago) link
_Bonham never hobbled a Zeppelin song the way Watts does "Get Off My Cloud"_^slander
― no one wants to twerk anymore (will), Saturday, 23 July 2022 03:03 (one year ago) link
Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.
― System, Sunday, 31 July 2022 00:01 (one year ago) link
I loved reading this tribute to Charlie, especially Weinberg's:
https://www.theguardian.com/music/2021/aug/26/stewart-copeland-max-weinberg-on-charlie-watts-rolling-stones
― birdistheword, Sunday, 31 July 2022 00:23 (one year ago) link
I prefer Keith over Bonham, but this is horseshit, I love all three and they all bring something unique to the table. I don't want Bonham playing behind the Stones just as I wouldn't want Watts playing behind Zeppelin - changing any of the drummers like that would have fucked up the alchemy behind those records and those songs.
― birdistheword, Sunday, 31 July 2022 00:26 (one year ago) link
that doesn't mean mustard is better than stubbs bbq sauce
― Loud guitars shit all over "Bette Davis Eyes" (NYCNative), Sunday, 31 July 2022 05:00 (one year ago) link