Charlie Watts vs John Bonham

RINGO

Bonham's not even the best drummer in Led Zeppelin.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8u7J4NpMkuI
Charlie Watts may have been an immaculate dresser but JOHN BONHAM HAD ONE OF THE BEST DRUM BEATS OF ALL TIME

could listen to this all day
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kG0fNoj6r-Y

i remember having this exact debate with my college roommate in 1977. i said bonham he said charlie. my position has since reversed. not sure about his.

Bonham never hobbled a Zeppelin song the way Watts does "Get Off My Cloud"; on the other hand, Watts never perpetrated "Moby Dick".

Watts' drums make "Get Off Of My Cloud." I never once thought he hobbled the track -- he's practically a third guitar.

Those snare rolls sound perfectly amateurish! And he does them every two bars!

He does the same fill in "Ruby Tuesday, where it gets on my nerves just as much.

Shambolic amateur hour

i have survived three john bonham drum solos. just sayin'.

haha never noticed those rolls, now I can't unhear it

Those snare rolls sound perfectly amateurish! And he does them every two bars!

― Halfway there but for you

"Amateurish" is description not criticism!

There are a bunch of Stones songs where it sounds like Charlie is hearing them for the first time.

Lol exactly

Bonham is the greatest rock drummer ever

I don’t think whatever it is that separates him from a mere ‘great’ rock drummer can be taught.

Rmde @ voting for Watts here

a case could be made that charlie is the greatest rock & roll drummer ever. and that the "& roll" piece can't be taught either. just listen to videos of the stones without him. and the new guy's no slouch.

Just for "Get Off Off My Cloud, "Paint It, Black," "Hand of Fate," and "Miss You," Watts deserves immortality.

Both drummers served the songwriters. I couldn't imagine swapping them out.

yup

I think “miss you” is prob Charlie’s finest performance, just excellent

neither of them were even fit to lug Elvin Jones gear onto stage for him. I suspect Watts would have probably admitted this, less said about the other one the better.

A case could be made that my Mom is the greatest rock & roll drummer ever. It just might not be a good one.

Calzino,what do you think of Sunny Murray?

if i could employ some meaningless drummer lingo i would say watts' feel is amazing and it's why i'm selecting him over bonham even though i like bonham a lot

watts doesn't hobble "get off of my cloud," he drives it

those "amateurish" rolls are one of the biggest hooks in the song

100%, watts' choices on that song take it from good to great.

theyre each the perfect drummers for their respective bands. but in the interest of science i am now imagining swapping them out. in an alternate universe i can imagine bonham holding it down in a mediocre, much-reduced version of the stones. its a lot harder for me to imagine watts keeping his head above water in LZ. so i guess thats a vote for bonzo.

xxxp

he was one of the greatest, and he finished his life scraping by on benefits and making pennies bootlegging his own music.

I saw him play a couple of times and he was incredible. As for Watts and Bonham, the poll is about who you like not who's "better", surely?

I saw Murray in Montreal in 02; among the best shows I ever saw. I didn't know what the end of his life was like; sad to hear it.

God those Bonham isolated tracks are insane. How does something so heavy have that much groove? He's just murdering that kit.

Love Watts too, obv.

I only saw Sunny Murray once, in 1998, in a duo with Sonny Simmons. It was incredible to hear that sound in person. Among those in the audience was Robert Plant (he and Page were playing the United Center the next night). It’s all a rich tapestry.

Not gonna vote in this. Bonham couldn’t have done “Monkey Man” or “Rip This Joint,” Watts couldn’t have done “Levee” or “Achilles.”

xps

it was mentioned in one of his obituaries, and as sad as it was to read that such a legend spent his last days in precarity and then a care home. Some of his contemporaries like Byard and Dolphy had much worse endings though.

"Shine a Light," "It's Only Rock n Roll," "You Can't Always Get What You Want" and "Happy" all don't feature Charlie, and none suffer for it, tbh. Or call attention to it, really. My favorite Charlie stuff might be the later stuff, when he goes into full wind up robo monkey mode. The last time I saw him play I was sort of shocked by how often he hit a crash on the third beat in the middle of a verse, which always throws me off a bit.

But Bonham was one of a kind and irreplaceable. I mean, first song, first album!!!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zjpOxfbZ1eA

neither of them were even fit to lug Elvin Jones gear onto stage for him.

Watts owned kits by some of his heroes. I don’t know if Elvin’s was among the sets, but he had gear used by Art Blakey, Sonny Greer, and Max Roach, among others. My understanding is that he communicated directly with their families to acquire these drums, as opposed to bidding on them at auctions.

Also, Elvin couldn’t do what Watts did and Watts couldn’t do what Elvin did.

"Shine a Light," "It's Only Rock n Roll," "You Can't Always Get What You Want" and "Happy" all don't feature Charlie, and none suffer for it, tbh.

Watts said of Kenney Jones on “Only Rock ‘n’ Roll,” “I don’t mind. Sounds like me, anyway.”

If Tony Williams could play "Rise" with PiL I'm pretty sure Elvin could do what Watts did.

xxp
some of his drumming on the individualism of gil evans sounds like what watts does, although I don't really fuck with the stones tbh so I'm probably not best qualified to comment!

My opinion on this poll is a matter of record but tbh I don't see how the simplicity of the snare rolls on "Get Off of My Cloud" hobbles the simplicity of everything else. I always liked those as a primitive garage/punky sort of hook.

From a purely technical standpoint, Elvin had the facility to play what Watts played. I don’t believe he would have been able to make the last-second scattershot snare rolls in “Rip This Joint” as frightening as Watts did. I don’t believe he would have been able to elevate “Tumbling Dice” the way Watts did (with or without Jimmy Miller playing alongside). And why should he? That wasn’t Elvin’s approach, just as what Elvin did wasn’t Charlie’s approach.

Tony Williams came up loving rock ‘n’ roll, and was a stone Beatles fanatic (to the consternation of some of his collaborators/contemporaries in the ‘60s and ‘70s). Elvin appreciated certain rock ‘n’ roll from a distance as a listener, but was never as immersed in it as Tony.

I don't get technical about drumming I'm just a simpleton that knows what I like and I could listen to EJ's drumming on Flute Song/Hotel Me on a loop for hours.

xxxxxxxxxxp
if your mom were cindy blackman maybe.

It's an academic exercise, but what Watts is doing at its most difficult is sooooooo much simpler and easier than what Elvin is typically up to, which of course says more about Elvin than it does about Charlie, or why Charlie is still the best fit for the Stones, etc. Different animals.

Still, reminds me of an interview with Omar Hakim about recording "Brothers in Arms" for Dire Straits. They were struggling with Terry Williams in the studio, and after weeks (months?) of work they replaced him with Omar Hakim, who (predictably) nailed all his parts in two days. Talk about "Money for Nothing." Or hell, Darryl Jones in the Stones, who supposedly played everything with one finger on his audition to keep it simple. Rock is rock and jazz is jazz.

I like Charlie's playing a lot, and I'm all for drummer challops (I have argued that Ralph Molina is one of the greatest rock drummers of all time), but there is just zero case to be made whatsoever for Charlie Watts as a better drummer than John Bonham. Zero. I will die on this hill.

Also, Elvin couldn’t do what Watts did and Watts couldn’t do what Elvin did.

The generation afterward — Tony Williams, but particularly Billy Cobham, Lenny White and Jack DeJohnette — are the guys who could really do it all. A great jazz drummer is a great jazz drummer but will utterly flail when asked to play a caveman rock beat. A guy who can do both (and I'd add Ronald Shannon Jackson to that list) is something else again.

BTW, Bill Ward should be part of this discussion. One of the most swinging rock drummers ever.

This isn't like comparing Ringo to Mike Portnoy or something, it's not chops vs feel. Bonham is one of the greatest groove/feel drummers of all time and also had incredible chops that (mostly) were not overused, except in overlong live bullshit. They're both serve the song drummers, and Bonham is just the far superior drummer. Would I rather see Bonham with the Stones than Watts? No, but, I don't want stubbs bbq sauce on my pastrami either, that doesn't mean mustard is better than stubbs bbq sauce.

It doesn't matter if one drummer is superior to the other. If Bonham couldn't drum on a Stones song, then the question's meaningless.

The only time I wish a band had dumped a major member was The Who with Daltrey after 1980.

John Bonham's greatness doesn't take anything away from Charlie Watts, who was a great drummer for his band. But Bonham is a once-in-a-generation talent.

I like to think about Bonham without all the hype and baggage, as just another drummer among his contemporaries. His sound alone is so special, and it's not just the recording and drum selection/tuning (those are important but relatively minor factors imo), it's in his hands and his relationship to the drums. To get that kind of perfect, huge, consistent, in-the-pocket sound your whole body needs to work in harmony with physics. Like Tony Williams, he just had that thing. I don't even think he hit "hard", in the sense that most people think of it, he always looks relaxed and that's how you get the most sound out of the drums (although I have heard stories about him going around sitting in and basically destroying people's drums in the early days, I think that was from Bill Ward, but I've also heard stories about him playing a child's kit and getting his sound out of it).

will always take Stones over Zep (whom I love dearly, mind) but not entirely sure I’d be inclined listen to hours of just his drum tracks for the hell of it.

actually fuck that. maybe? lol

Bonham never hobbled a Zeppelin song the way Watts does "Get Off My Cloud"

(don’t love drums on Ruby tho)

i saw charlie leading a jazz band outdoors at lincoln center and there was one tune where he got turned around mid-song and never found his way back. i was a little embarrassed for him. i still pick him though.

Bonham did have the advantage of dying young.

best Charlie performances on RS records for me are on Some Girls/ Emotional/ Tattoo. probably has a lot to do w engineering but that’s my shit

John Bonham vs. Keith Moon is a much harder call. A coin toss, really.

I spent years in my bedroom – literally fucking years – listening to Bonham's drums and trying to emulate his swing or his behind-the-beat swagger or his speed or power. Not just memorizing what he did on those albums but getting myself into a place where I would have the same instinctual direction as he had.

--Dave Grohl

eh, who cares

John Bonham vs. Keith Moon is a much harder call. A coin toss, really.

i saw charlie leading a jazz band outdoors at lincoln center and there was one tune where he got turned around mid-song and never found his way back. i was a little embarrassed for him. i still pick him though.

I once saw Cindy Blackman completely lose the plot during a solo with Pharoah Sanders’ band in the mid 90s.

The fuck

Indeed

https://www.avclub.com/john-bonham-george-fludas-led-zeppelin-bonhamology-1849058797

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eef--qblm6A

Keith Moon vs. John Bonham POLL

Keith Moon vs. John Bonham POLL🕸

Good discussion in that thread.

_Bonham never hobbled a Zeppelin song the way Watts does "Get Off My Cloud"_


^slander

Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.

I loved reading this tribute to Charlie, especially Weinberg's:

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2021/aug/26/stewart-copeland-max-weinberg-on-charlie-watts-rolling-stones

I prefer Keith over Bonham, but this is horseshit, I love all three and they all bring something unique to the table. I don't want Bonham playing behind the Stones just as I wouldn't want Watts playing behind Zeppelin - changing any of the drummers like that would have fucked up the alchemy behind those records and those songs.

that doesn't mean mustard is better than stubbs bbq sauce

Otm

Bonham, and it isn't even close

birdistheword otm

"Amateurish" is description not criticism!

Right, "hobbled" was criticism.

Underrated Watts performance: "Jigsaw Puzzle".
Underrated Bonham performance: "South Bound Saurez" or "Ozone Baby"

"Jigsaw Puzzle" may be my favorite Stones song, and Charlie is one of the main reasons why. Those little grace notes just before the 1 and the 3 are so perfect in how they sustain and advance the narrative.

That's another song where the tempo is all over the place. But I think if anything that's where Charlie's "swing" comes in: it can't be easy to keep things together in such a famously shambling band! (Oddly, the Who might be the opposite example; Keith Moon can't have been easy to play with.)

That's another song where the tempo is all over the place.

(Oddly, the Who might be the opposite example; Keith Moon can't have been easy to play with.)

He could sometimes be difficult to play with; Entwistle sometimes talked about pulling a cymbal aside in order to find the beat by looking at Moon's feet. But he and Townshend developed their approaches so that they would work with Moon's (also, his volume was such that it necessitated the invention of the Marshall Stack). While there are few instances of Keith playing outside of the Who, no one on Labelle's "Miss Otis Regrets" or Mike Heron's "Warm Heart Pastry" (which also has Townshend, Ronnie Lane, and John Cale) sounds flummoxed by Moon's playing.

Retrospectively, Townshend has said "I didn't think much of him as a drummer," largely because the role of strict timekeeping fell to Pete. He never had the opportunity with Keith to play single-note solos against a solid backbeat, and just about all of Pete's choices for drummers in his solo projects and for the Who were slightly-behind-the-beat backbeat specialists.

And to bring it back to Watts,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2Z_FO0uao8

Before I got to Tarfumes on Pete as timekeeper etc., was thinking about seeing Stones in Memphis, 1975----Robert Palmer's coverage incl. some excellent points:

Jim Dickinson, the Memphis musician who played piano on “Wild Horses,” burst into the press box from backstage, where he’d obviously been having a good time. “Listen to that rhythm section,” he crowed. “Now that they’ve got Ollie Brown to keep time, Charlie doesn’t have to, and he’s playing. Wyman too. I’ve heard ’em cook some fast jazz in the studio just warming up, and then they start playing Stones songs and it’s back to the gorilla music. But this is great.”
...Brown’s cowbell and timbales reproduced the special lift the overdubbed percussion tracks have always given key Stones songs. His solidity enabled Watts to vary his cymbal sound and introduce cross-rhythms... Richards, whose rhythm guitar parts are the backbone of every Stones rocker, had turned virtually all the lead work over to Wood. “Get Off My Cloud,” “Heartbreaker” and a few other tunes had taken on an 8/8 rhythm feel with salsa flavoring...
...Back at the hotel, Wyman commented that he liked the audience and Furry Lewis, then left with Memphis R&B bassist “Duck” Dunn. Charlie Watts sat down and, asked how he liked playing with Ollie Brown, replied, “Oh, he’s a great player. Great. We used a percussionist from Billy’s band before, on a European tour, but that was more spontaneous. This time we decided to do it right and rehearsed intensively.” Did Ollie free him to experiment more? “I don’t know, I just play.”
But Watts really wanted to talk about jazz. In New York he’d been impressed by avant-garde pianist Cecil Taylor, swing-era musicians Roy Eldridge and Paul Quinichette and drummer Roy Haynes. “Every time people tell me I’m good,” he said, “I . . . like it at first — anybody does — but then I think about people like Roy [Haynes], who played with Charlie Parker and John Coltrane and is still playing in clubs. You know, when I started I played Dixieland, and then I went on to bands that were trying to re-create the Johnny Hodges and Duke Ellington small-band sound from the Thirties. I worked up to playing Fifties-period Thelonious Monk. All the time I thought that what I’d eventually be doing, what I wanted to be doing, was playing with a trio in a cellar for a few junkies.” A reporter who’d been looking for an opening blurted, “What do you think of American music?” Watts stared with his huge, liquid eyes and snorted softly, “I don’t know about anything but American music,” he said. “None of us do, really. And what I like about American music is basically black music. That’s not to say white people can’t play it, but to me, American music is black music.”

even as somebody who has a lot of time for rolling stones records, i feel like the effect of charlie watts' drumming is being oversold here. as it was following his death, when i constantly had to hear that watts was "actually a jazz drummer."

do we really need to bend over backyards to make it seem like he had this grand, mystical vision of impersonating a shitty drummer in order to serve the music? isn't it okay to just admit that he's a shitty drummer who was in the right place at the right time, and that it's a happy coincidence that it ended up working so well? seems a lot easier to me

xpost vary his cymbal sound and introduce cross-rhythms... To put it mildly! He was flying through the rest of the music at times, but/and it all worked that way--Billy Preston was a good listener, for instance.

A rock drummer who learned from jazz, I'd say. He talked elsewhere about working early on with "eccentric old men" who were really into Mingus, for instance.

for instance

I’m so happy my dumb ass question got so much discussion going

Prediction : Bonham

Thanks for posting that, dow. Watts also mentioned digging Cecil (and Ornette) in an early '90s TV interview. And Roy Haynes is still out there playing. I saw him in 2018 and was completely blown away.

And thank you, Tarfumes,for making me think of that concert, and leading me to that piece, which I hadn't seen before---here's another one I just came across, haven't read the whole thing yet:

In a previously unpublished interview from 2013, Watts goes deep into his favorite drummers, what the Stones do better than the Beatles, and outlasting almost every band
By MIKAL GILMORE

Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.

Hell yeah
The people have spoken

So many Watts apologists itt

Charlie Watts b.1941
John Bonham b.1948

I think this is the big difference.

Uh no

xp i don't really buy into that but if anything it's when they died