Frank Zappa: Classic or Dud?

tbf he also despised the counterculture lol

― mark s

not misogynist enough obvs

Much as I love Iggy, he's got a snobbish side; read his autobiography and you'll be amazed how he thought of the other Stooges as basically tools to achieve his ends.

I listened to Halloween '73 yesterday, the Roxy & Elsewhere band doing the standard setlist from that era, which a few fun throwbacks like "The Dog Breath Variations" and "Uncle Meat." Pretty good overall, but he introduces Ruth "Smelling Good Between The Legs" Underwood, and I'm just like... why? I guess if she was able to tolerate being in the band with him it shouldn't bother me, but... WHY?

― Three Rings for the Elven Bishop (Dan Peterson)

for me it's hearing Lady Bianca talk about that concert she played where an audience was hooting for her to take her clothes off. well, she didn't take no shit, so she shot right back "Tell your mama to take her clothes off, and then tell her to go eat a rat's dick". it's great listening to the tape because you hear what zappa sounds like when he's _really uncomfortable about not having control of things_. he puts on this really jokey "Heyyyy! That's right!" voice - you know the one - and then as soon as they're back stage he tells her she was being _unprofessional_. fuck that guy.

(and his terrible art)

since we're all being pedantic ("gentleman, you can't be pedantic here it's the oh wait i see") he isn't a boomer

born 1940 = the (lol) silent generation IF ONLY

The 60s counterculture was plenty misogynist without Zappa. Zappa always seems like he was much more of a product of the 50s than the 60s.

Boomer is a state of mind I shouldn’t have to explain this to the youngest zoomer

he thought of the other Stooges as basically tools to achieve his ends.

He said something in the 90s about how, at one point, the Ashetons were trying to organize a band themselves: "they couldn't organize a fish tank without me".

Having said what I said, high school could be pretty stultifying even in the 90s so

I think I've heard that Lady Bianca show! Back in college I used to download a bunch of Zappa boots and listen to them while studying. Say what you will about the man but he's put together some really insane bands and every show has a few magic moments in it - one of them was Lady Bianca doing "You Didn't Try to Call Me". Shitty that she had to put up with that, especially knowing that Frank himself didn't have her back. Regardless of whatever ironic distance he was going for or whatever social commentary he was trying to make his fanbase sure as hell took a lot of that shit at face value which makes him not a whole lot different than Andrew Dice Clay.

Obviously there are a lot more indefensible things about the guy but one that always sticks out to me is the 84 version of We're Only In It For the Money which replaces the drums and bass. it sounds AWFUL - it's got that loud electronic snare sound and the slap bass makes it sound like someone is playing the Seinfeld theme on top of all the tracks. it does not fit in with the original recording at all and the entire mix is pretty much universally derided, even the among Zappa diehards. Frank himself defended the mix, saying he had to do it because the original masters were damaged, but that actually turned out to be a lie, since those same tapes were used to remaster the album later on. What it turned out to be was a grudge Frank had with his old bandmates, and by replacing the rhythm section it meant he wouldn't have to pay those guys royalties. So the guy was willing to ruin one of his best albums just to stick it to some guys he had a falling out with a decade ago.

Certainly not a huge deal but it kind of confirmed to me that the guy's bitterness did indeed get in the way of his work and that it probably wasn't worth venturing too much farther into his catalogue. You know, outside of the 10 or so albums I already bought.

Obviously there are a lot more indefensible things about the guy but one that always sticks out to me is the 84 version of We're Only In It For the Money which replaces the drums and bass. it sounds AWFUL - it's got that loud electronic snare sound and the slap bass makes it sound like someone is playing the Seinfeld theme on top of all the tracks. it does not fit in with the original recording at all and the entire mix is pretty much universally derided, even the among Zappa diehards. Frank himself defended the mix, saying he had to do it because the original masters were damaged, but that actually turned out to be a lie, since those same tapes were used to remaster the album later on. What it turned out to be was a grudge Frank had with his old bandmates, and by replacing the rhythm section it meant he wouldn't have to pay those guys royalties. So the guy was willing to ruin one of his best albums just to stick it to some guys he had a falling out with a decade ago.

― frogbs

on the one hand, yes, it's shitty, on the other hand, the bass player in question _was_ three-time convicted child molester roy estrada.

on the one hand, yes, it's shitty, on the other hand, the bass player in question _was_ three-time convicted child molester roy estrada.

And if that was his reason for changing it, that would have been almost admirable (as well as totally out of character). But no, it was done for the exact same reason Ozzy and Sharon Osbourne wiped the bass and drum tracks off his two best solo albums, Blizzard of Ozz and Diary of a Madman, in the early 2000s — to fuck the guys who played on the records out of a few bucks. (And as with Zappa, the original rhythm tracks were eventually restored.)

also this was like 15 years before he was convicted, so I don't think it was that

idk what the details are but I think Napoleon Murphy Brock is also a registered sex offender now, kinda makes you wonder what kind of shit they got away with back in the day. I can totally see Zappa's touring band doubling as some kind of weird sex cult

I'm getting the feeling that the consensus is "Dud."

I recently heard Chad Wackerman talking about how Zappa was so totally enamored of the sound he was getting in his studio at that particular point in the eighties, he just wanted to hear what those records old sounded like with more supple musicians and his shiny 80s drum and bass sound. Not particularly because he wanted Jimmy Carl Black or Estrada to not get any more money.

counterpoint: two birds one stone

With whatever level of sincerity, he said that the kids of the 80s wouldn't listen to his old records without some shiny slap bass and drums on top.

the thing is I don't really believe him. for one I've read his book and seen the documentary and this seems like exactly the sort of thing he'd do and lie about later. for two it's done in such a shoddy, slapdash fashion that I have a hard time buying that anyone could've thought it sounded alright. I mean it's not like this was marketed as a remixed or 'updated' version, it was for many years the only version of it you could get

(xp) And they didn't listen anyway. Surprise surprise.

The 60s counterculture was plenty misogynist without Zappa. Zappa always seems like he was much more of a product of the 50s than the 60s.

― Eavis Has Left the Building (Tom D.), Thursday, July 7, 2022 1:23 PM (five hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

I was gonna say. Anyone checked out the first Fugs record lately?

I think I've heard that Lady Bianca show! Back in college I used to download a bunch of Zappa boots and listen to them while studying. Say what you will about the man but he's put together some really insane bands and every show has a few magic moments in it - one of them was Lady Bianca doing "You Didn't Try to Call Me". Shitty that she had to put up with that, especially knowing that Frank himself didn't have her back. Regardless of whatever ironic distance he was going for or whatever social commentary he was trying to make his fanbase sure as hell took a lot of that shit at face value which makes him not a whole lot different than Andrew Dice Clay.

― frogbs

Yeah it's the definitive tape of the tour - I don't know if it was a Lampinski or anything like that, but it's a fantastic aud. And yeah, shit-talk Zappa's "shitty music" all you want but hearing Lady Bianca sing "You Didn't Try To Call Me" as a soul tour-de-force ... it's good. Really good. I'll stand by it. The "Black Napkins" from that show is great too. I mean it's a _two-chord vamp_, how do you criticize that as "shitty"?

I always used to despite Frank Zappa and his music. Over time this has mellowed into a mixture of indifference and disinterest. I grew up in the wake of punk, so I disliked his music twice over; firstly because it was indulgent, secondly because it was bluesy-rocky-jazzy in a style that hasn't aged well. I sometimes imagine how I would feel about Frank Zappa if his music had been entirely instrumental and he had never spoken in public. If he had been struck mute at the age of nineteen. He would be like YouTube sidebar sensation Masayoshi Takanaka and I would like him.

I remember wondering why, if he disliked rock music so much, why didn't he become a film score composer instead? Why didn't he just shut up and play his guitar? Couldn't he write at least one sincerely emotional song? One song that you could rock out to without having to tell the audience how stupid they are? His entire oeuvre was built on jokey sarcasm and what appeared to be a snobbish dislike of rock music and people who enjoyed rock music. The title track of Joe's Garage is wistful and "Watermelon in Easter Hay" has a lovely melody, but beyond that his entire back catalogue is an emotional dead zone.

And his humour had the form of humour without actually being funny. He had a habit of just listing zany or offensive things without building a joke around them. It's as if he was aware of Monty Python's freeform approach but didn't understand how it worked. By the 1980s he was a middle-aged man making jokes about using a banana as a sex toy and using the N-word. He struck me as the kind of middle-aged man who tries to establish dominance over teenagers by boasting about the time he shat on a prostitute, and fuck you if you can't take a joke. As if he was insecure. Like how Monty Python's The Meaning of Life was just pointlessly crude and offensive at times. That film was made by middle-aged men who were nervous about a new wave of comedy, who wanted to show the world that they could still get it up.

On the other hand I remember a while back someone uploaded a bunch of uncut episodes of The Old Grey Whistle Test to YouTube, and it finally clicked as to why people of a certain age idolised him. Sandwiched in between The Doobie Brothers, Cockney Rebel, Barclay James Harvest, Druid, and Stackridge he was a breath of fresh air. If I had grown up in the 1970s, without access to the internet, with a handful of tapes and albums, I would probably have thought that he was fantastic. He was rude, but he could play as well as anyone! But thing is that I grew up at a time when he had retreated to his home studio, putting out compilations of guitar solos, and then he died, so there was never that click.

Wow, great post!

yeah that all seems otm, great post. I came away from his book wondering why he chose to work in the music business at all given he hated seemingly every aspect of it. After the first chapter there's virtually nothing about what pushed him to crank out 70+ albums given how much he seemed to dislike making them.

I always wondered if some of Zappa's bitterness stemmed from having his "freak" culture get co-opted in the late 60s by the Beatles, Floyd, and a bunch of one-off psych bands. especially since, as I gather from a lot of those early lyrics, Zappa and his crew probably got rejected a lot for being creepy and weird. lotta "oh I'll show you who's a freak" vibes to pretty much everything he does.

Not really, what's wrong with Cockney Rebel?

Ashley Pomeroy completely otm. And this

And his humour had the form of humour without actually being funny.

sums him up perfectly.

Not really, what's wrong with Cockney Rebel?

More to the point, what's wrong with Stackridge?
Zappa's humour, if not his musicianship, was a massive influence on a certain strain of 70s-90s American avant-rock - Shockabilly/Chadbourne/Bongwater etc, Ween, Primus, a deluge of obscurities like Zoogz Rift and Three Day Stubble and Fred Lane and on and on. Somehow I prefer that goofy strain of humour, irritating though it kind of is. But at least I don't feel like the artists are trying to humiliate me, which is totally what I get from Zappa every time I'm unfortunate enough to hear any of it.

that's almost certainly true, though it's worth mentioning all those bands are funnier than Zappa

which makes me wonder: what is the funniest moment in the Zappa catalogue? surely not all his jokes are misfires

Adrian Belew's Dylan impression on "Flakes" is pretty funny. at one point there's a little harmonica note in the background that always makes me laugh.

but that's Belew...the only Zappa thing I can think of that actually makes me laugh is the beginning of "America Drinks"

Ween have said Zappa had no influence on them whatsoever, and they are a lot younger than the other bands mentioned.

It probably filtered through! They started out on Shimmy-Disc - home also to The Fugs, who weren't funny either.

Well, Tuli Kupferberg of the Fugs at least

even if so they did write "Mister Richard Smoker" which is the sort of thing Zappa regularly shat out in the late 70s

I'd say Zappa's misanthropy probably ties to some events in his life. As stated ten years up on the thread, I think him getting totally screwed by vice cops and losing his recording studio business is a big part of his 'fxxx everything'. To add, I got to think that nut pushing FZ off the stage in London and nearly killing him probably did not help either.

As for satire, I kinda think those early Mothers records (Freak Out!, Absolutely Free & We Are Only In It for the Money) are the best for that kinda thing even being of their time.

It seems to me bad feelings around the original bands firing, nearly getting killed and repulsion/reveling in road culture of the band brought out a meaner more nasty streak.

even if so they did write "Mister Richard Smoker" which is the sort of thing Zappa regularly shat out in the late 70s

― frogbs

frank zappa wasn't the first person in history to not be funny

Just misread that as frank kapra

phi zappa kapra

Look you gotta admit Zappa was unfunny in a very specific way

Generalissimo Frankie is still dead unfunny shockah!

Much as I love Iggy, he's got a snobbish side; read his autobiography and you'll be amazed how he thought of the other Stooges as basically tools to achieve his ends.

Sorry to reach back for something basically off-topic – but after viewing that (awful, IMO) Jarmusch doc about the Stooges, I came away feeling like Iggy was the most pretentious dick.

yeah he reads books what a nerd

Nah - personality issue (at least when talking about himself on camera)

man imagine muffin man if it didnt have such stupid lyrics.. it would be the heaviest song of all time

I always thought that 'Uncle Remus' showed working with George Duke, it was possible that FZ could have done some contemporary pop of that era.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTX3ivF4MqU

god, duke sings "cosmik debris" so much better than zappa does. i always found that song a lowlight of zappa's sets of the era but duke just kills it. there's this really nice demo tape of duke's from 1972 (often labelled 1974) with zappa of a couple of his songs, including "uncle remus", and it's such a great listen.

i think one of the big tragedies of a lot of zappa's sidemen was... i've seen the phrase "irony poisoning" a lot right now, regarding the negative ways being overly involved in The Discourse can affect someone, and i definitely get the impression that people who played with zappa were susceptible to that. they were great musicians but playing with zappa seems like it would have to have been a really fucked up and toxic environment.

I think I've noted it before on this thread, but with a couple of exceptions it's interesting to me how little of note most of his musicians managed for the rest of their careers. Imo.

George Duke was so much more interesting than Zappa. Started out co-leading a band with Jean-Luc Ponty, Zappa scoops them both up, Duke leaves to join Cannonball Adderley's band, returns to Zappa's band after two years, stays a while, making solo albums at the same time (some of which Zappa plays on as a pseudonymous guest), writes a never-produced opera, eventually moves over into the funk/R&B/fusion realm, produces gigantic pop hits in the '80s and is a huge influence on a whole generation of young L.A. jazz cats (Thundercat, to name just one, is a Duke devotee, a fact which is clearly audible if you listen to more than 30 seconds of his music).

Not that I really know much about George Duke but yeah, otm.

I think I've noted it before on this thread, but with a couple of exceptions it's interesting to me how little of note most of his musicians managed for the rest of their careers. Imo.

― Josh in Chicago, Sunday, July 10, 2022 9:41 AM (forty-four minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

This isn't really true. Steve Vai, Adrian Belew, Duke, Lowell George, Ponty, Bozzio, Vestine, Sugarcane, and Colaiuta, off the top of my head, all did pretty well for themselves.