The Jordan Peterson Thread

"How to be a good man" from a left perspective will often boil down to "how to navigate a sexist system for the benefit of others." Like, I'm the person who deals with all government bureaucracy in my house, because when it's a white (presenting) male voice on the phone, shit gets handled approximately 150x faster.

^yassss king

I’m not sure that “how to be a good man/person” is really what I’m talking about. I’m saying that no one tells men it’s ok for them to care for themselves. Like I think a lot of young men live in a state of self-neglect, and don’t even know how to recognize it as such. And I do think that can be related to being a good person inasmuch as self care and self empathy can make a good foundation for kindness to others.

I get what you're saying, man alive, and a lot of young men *not* getting those sorts of lessons and etc has to do with a culture of misogyny— "the woman will take care of you" and such bullshit— so the rank misogyny of Peterson (along with everything else) sort of cancels out the good part.

Not sort of, totally.

I don't think women really get that message either and are living in similar states of self-neglect - because giving people agency over their lives isn't what our system does.

There's more self-help and self-care marketed to women, but they're generally just that - marketing for products.

I get what you're saying, man alive, and a lot of young men *not* getting those sorts of lessons and etc has to do with a culture of misogyny— "the woman will take care of you" and such bullshit— so the rank misogyny of Peterson (along with everything else) sort of cancels out the good part.

― broccoli rabe thomas (the table is the table), Tuesday, July 5, 2022 9:18 PM (forty-two minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

Well first of all, of course it cancels out, my whole point is that I wish someone with decent politics could find a way to reach young men with some of these "good parts" but better politics attached to it.

Also, I think you're probably right that, at least indirectly, "women will take care of this stuff" is the sociological root of a lot of what I am talking about, whether or not these particular young men did in fact grow up with a woman taking care of that stuff (I didn't at all, and I was pretty self-neglecting for a long time). But if anything, that's all the more reason for someone to encourage men to learn to take care of themselves. That would be a net positive for them and indirectly benefit any future partners they might have too.

Yeah women “taking care of stuff” seems otm to me. I guess a lot of dudes can be spoiled and/or neglected by their parents. And while that’s nothing new, what does seem new(ish) is that a lot of those guys aren’t getting married the minute they leave home or college to someone who’s going to wash their undies and make their tendies. They seem pretty resentful about it. Enter Peterson. Sure, he’s going to tell you to clean your room bucko, but also give you a framework about why your resentment (mostly directed women, lgbtq, cultural marxists, Disney Pixar, people who make fun of you online) is actually righteous and earned.

Or I guess that’s how he initially hit a cultural nerve online. Now I assume conservative parents just give their little champs Peterson books as graduation presents or when they get a gay teacher fired.

Can imagine Peterson as an Ayn Rand-esque figure, whose shitty books are shared between emotionally crippled right-wingers as a pseudo-intellectual justification for endless behavioural faults and cruelties

xp that seems right to me. People seeking this guy’s advice out aren’t doing so to improve their lives, they are doing so to validate their resentments at the parts of society they feel are doing them out of something they’ve earned. If you genuinely want to self improve, listening to some sweaty guy ranting about how women are chaotic and the source of all evil or whatever seems counterproductive to that.

I've not read it but in the UK, Robert Webb the Peep Show comedy actor, wrote a mainstream book called How To Be A Man, which is probably the kind of thing people are talking about upthread. I can't imagine anyone who isn't already part of the congregation reading it though

JP's book isn't marketed in the same way though I guess. It's aimed primarily at young men, obviously, but ostensibly it's seen as a general pseudo-philosophical work who want to declutter themselves from "chaos"

I will admit, and this is perhaps the privilege of being raised by v progressive people talking, that I have zero patience for all this "how to be a man" stuff even when it's coming from a good place - all this stuff about detoxifying masculinity and dudes going to groups to discuss how to be men in a modern, progressive way - there's nothing there that doesn't just boil down to being a good person, as milo said. I mean learning to use your societal standing for good, sure, but that's really not what most of this hand wringing is about.

Robert Webb also breaks a p big rule on how to be a good man by being a TERF.

so I guess there's at least one issue him and Jordan Peterson can agree on!

I mean tbh I agree, I was more trying to suss out the dynamics man alive was talking about

I’m not sure that “how to be a good man/person” is really what I’m talking about. I’m saying that no one tells men it’s ok for them to care for themselves. Like I think a lot of young men live in a state of self-neglect, and don’t even know how to recognize it as such. And I do think that can be related to being a good person inasmuch as self care and self empathy can make a good foundation for kindness to others.

― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Wednesday, July 6, 2022 3:10 AM (ten hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

Didn't bell hooks an da few others have to make a big thing of that for activists which may be taken as women by some as default. & i only really seems to have become a thing there in recent years.
Not really wanting to excuse Peterson but maybe self-care is something that does need to be highlighted. Especially if one is dealing with stiff upper lip toxic masculinity.
Did nearly buy his book recently when I saw it in a charity shop then realised i had a load of other things to read already but still maybe I should read what the other side says etc. Can help hone arguments against etc. Or may just be toxicity one doesn't need to absorb. I dunno

people literally tell dudes this stuff all the time

the "mens groups" / "mens improvement" thing is, how do i say it, a tonic directed at a need, but i don't think the tonic does much to meet the need and may even make the need grow? i guess some people find it fulfilling, but i don't know, to me it's a manufactured substitute for what used to be social ingrouping based on gender roles. there isn't anything spiritual in that.

i do think that, generally, there is a desire among cishet men to be able to embrace or celebrate their gender and sexuality, but that there is a lot of confusion because masculine sexuality is so warped by power and selfishness. my experience is that by learning to be a good person rather than a good man, the gender and sexuality part falls in where it needs to go and is given the space to change as it needs to. of course being a good person isn't some moral crusade, at the risk of embarrassing myself by trying to sum up an impossible topic in a few words, it's more like centering other experiences while being wholly accountable and present or something like that. bell hooks is a really good reference point here and sort of the anti-jordan peterson - she uses the word "love" a lot, she she has a thoughtful and specific definition of the word which is otm i think.

There are lots of books that probably fit the model. Stuff like:

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71XE4ihjgHL.jpg

And related things. The question is, yeah, who would read it? Until men read these books on their own, rather than being handed them by their partners and told to read them, it's kind of gently self-helping into the void. Anyway, not knowing much about Peterson, he definitely seems less a practical self-help guy than a totemistic guru or figurehead a la Ayn Rand, where the name alone conveys all you really need to know. Not unlike, I dunno, Richard Dawkins.

My impression is that if you’re giving your mother shit for asking you to clean your room but if you’re all of a sudden “omg professor peterson 🥺🥺🥺” over a crying wreck who’s constantly growing moffe upvn his skulle, then you have problems that are nothing to do with your sense of self-worth.

i do think that, generally, there is a desire among cishet men to be able to embrace or celebrate their gender and sexuality, but that there is a lot of confusion because masculine sexuality is so warped by power and selfishness

any self-help guru who hasn't publicly (and unironically) said "I'm sorry, I need to do better" at least once in the last 12 months, and whose tweets are viewed by his followers like the Ten Commandments isn't a self-help guru, he's Jim Jones without the Flavor-Aid

Good post, map, and lol gyac otm

Yes, "problems that have nothing to do with your self-worth" I think intersects with "i don't think the tonic does much to meet the need and may even make the need grow?" because you have to keep making the person worse and worse for them to keep chasing the lure you're dangling.

No one is getting better here, there is only worse.

lol srsly

i honestly think that a lot of people have never even experienced what it's like to show love to themselves let alone anyone else, like they're conditioned to only find pleasure in abuse and fascism because of trauma. i know the word 'trauma' is everywhere right now but i just think it points to how much more widespread it is than people realize, it's giving language to an experience most of us have to some degree or another.

the all-beef diet is his slower-acting Flavor Aid

the Maintenance Phase eps about his meat diet are def worth a listen

that reminds me: thanks for turning me on to that podcast, LL!

a crying wreck who’s constantly growing moffe upvn his skulle

I think I might have finally cured myself of caring about this man (I previously cared way too much), but this was hilarious, thank u gyac

I’m sorry but the man is damp (And yw)

terminal case of the meat sweats

Not to be a broken record here, but I think the reason a lot of that “good man” stuff doesn’t catch on is because it’s focused on how to “be good.” That’s just not an appealing hook unless you already have a very deep need to be seen as good or to feel that you are a good person, in which case you’re already probably not who needs to read those books. Peterson tells appealing stories and gives people ostensible tools to improve their own lives. I would like to think that there’s a way to do that without stoking the worst kinds of resentments and fears, and that perhaps the self compassion underlying it could even improve compassion for others. But I’m saying there has to be something that appeals to self interest and not just “do better, be a good person.” Because most people are never going to build their entire lives and senses of self solely around being a good person, being an ally, etc., whether you think they should or not.

Owsley Stanley recommended that all meat diet to the Grateful Dead at the time of them recording the 1st lp in LA in 67. & I think they followed it.
NOt really heard what the thought was behind it.
Think Beef was supposed to be the most manly food in Victorian epistemology too. & transfer its man power to those taht consumed it. May have been a thought from earlier times, possibly consciously being revived during teh Victorian era.

Or or or people like the idea of having validation to hate the people they already hate.

Seriously, this guy offers nothing. His morality is conservative Christianity, his tough love shit is anything you’d hear from a parent or friend. He offers bigotry with a professional title.

The notion is not being good for the sake of good for most people. It’s about treating others how you would wish to be treated. That’s not his message. His message is that you should try to strengthen yourself against the lesser hordes. That’s it.

this guy offers nothing

I mean, there is this:

https://i.postimg.cc/FKSMCxV1/Peterson.jpg

Tag yourself I'm the Matriarchal World of Darkness.

seriously man alive just stop. He tells "appealing stories"...about how everything you dislike is the fault of someone you hate or can be taught to hate. If men who felt insecure or unequipped for life and wanted to be happier, more capable, more functional, the options for doing that are as available to them as they are to everyone else (actually probably even more so).

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Also...if you have a unique understanding of the mindset of young people who might feel drawn to something in JP's offerings, and I'm not being disingenuous, I am not the person to have a ton of sympathy for those people but maybe you are!--I invite you to be a person who has something else to offer them and can communicate that! 100% serious. You want a better world? Make it that way.

listened to the podcast mentioned and heard the mention of Owsley Stanley which is much later than i was referring to him from. Hadn't realised he'd stuck with the meat only diet. Need to read the biography of him Bear. Seemed to be an interesting guy independently wealthy or an heir to a fortune or something . Had some pretty esoteric ideas, the word alembic being used for GD instruments came from his interest in Alchemy too.

Wasn't he the subject of "Kid Charlemagne"?

could be

I thought this was pretty interesting

https://rebelwisdom.substack.com/p/what-happened-to-jordan-peterson

from someone who finds the Jungian stuff interesting (which I, honestly, do not) and who is now kind of gingerly stepping away from what Peterson has become or has turned himself into or always basically was, whatever.

im trying to get through this article but i feel like im punishing myself by doing so

I enjoyed it. Thanks for the link. I’m always going to be a little suspicious of anyone who was an outright acolyte, but I do appreciate a perspective that isn’t filtered through a generally liberal/left reaction (a fair one, tbc) to how positively goofy he is.

Yeah I got here and was like

Back in 2018, Jordan Peterson was something of a filter for freethinkers, those who were prepared to question the media narrative. This is no longer the case.

bingo. this "he used to be a man of IDEAS, now hes this cartoon" story, like the only reason he became a cause celebre in the first place was bc he could launder blatant transphobia using his credentials as a psychologist.

Yea, acting as if he's only become evil recently = lol. He's added level-ups to his terribleness attributes but he always had them

If you go out of your way to label yourself a free-thinker, generally you aren't. Your thoughts would speak for themselves if you were.