Frank Zappa: Classic or Dud?

I suppose the comparison maybe interesting (?), but Zappa really has nothing worthwhile to say on this subject.

also "Illinois" is 3rd person, not from the POV of the bandit? like literally that is not what that song is.

I suppose the comparison maybe interesting (?), but Zappa really has nothing worthwhile to say on this subject.

― immodesty blaise (jimbeaux)

oh god i'm not saying _zappa's_ perspective is worthwhile i'm talking about _my_ perspective lol

Yeah, my post was totally unnecessary and pointless, sorry rushomancy. I also very much incorrectly recalled the POV of the lyrics, hadn't heard the song for many, many years.

fwiw I get it, I mean I remember "Jumbo Go Away" putting me off Zappa for a while and then coming back and thinking "ok, I probably just missed the joke, or misread the tone or something" then listening to it again and realizing it was even worse than I remembered

its frustrating because Zappa is (IMO) a smart & articulate person in general, and arguably a musical genius, which I think is why he got off so much on writing stuff like he's Andrew Dice Clay. I can see the appeal in something like that. But what gets me is there's just so little cleverness to it, it all feels so unsubtle and beneath him that I have to believe he's every bit the pig he tried to convince people he was. He tries to play both sides in a way that's so transparent that it kind of ruins everything about him. He was in his mid-30s when he wrote "Enema Bandit"!! and (as rush mentioned) he played it over and over and over again!

oh god i'm not saying _zappa's_ perspective is worthwhile i'm talking about _my_ perspective lol

No, I got that, but you were talking about comparing his take to Threadgill/Hentoff's.

The often indefensible, casual misogyny still remains a huge stumbling block for me so I find myself mostly returning to stuff like Hot Rats or the instrumental stuff most often.

So here's something I just thought about: Now that Frank Zappa's...everything (music released and otherwise, videos, *likeness*)...has been sold to Universal by the family, will there be an attempt to kind of integrate him into "classic rock" and scrub away his decades of fringe weirdo status?

Probably, and some attempt to solidify his image as the rock musician who "really understood" jazz fusion and classical.

one of the things that bugs me a lot about zappa these days is how _proud_ he was of being uneducated. bragged about having one semester of college and never having learned anything else about composition since then. i mean, i'm not putting him down for what he was, but compare that to, say, dirk campbell of egg and national health, who decided to really study composition in-depth when aaron copland criticized "long piece no. 3" for its lack of thematic development, resulting in works like "enneagram" and "zabaglione". (unfortunately the final version of "zabaglione", which is utterly brilliant, was never professionally recorded and exists only on a shitty-quality bootleg tape of campbell's last gig with the band)

I've always been curious what people who really study music think of Zappa. he does a lot of things that I consider interesting - having multiple guys play in different time signatures, writing these crazy horn charts and then using them for the vocal lines, all those sudden pitch-ups and double speed sections, etc. - the problem is most of the time this stuff just doesn't *sound* all that good. to me it does not sound all that different than the Weird Al parody "Genius in France", which IMO is a fair bit more listenable than 80% of the Zappa catalogue. are there musicologists out there willing to go on and on about Zappa's genius?

If I see the word genius and Frank Zappa in the same sentence again I think I'll scream.

I don't think he was proud of being uneducated. I think he was proud of being self-educated.

“Drop out of school before your mind rots from exposure to our mediocre educational system. Forget about the Senior Prom and go to the library and educate yourself if you've got any guts. Some of you like Pep rallies and plastic robots who tell you what to read.” and "“If you want to get laid, go to college. If you want an education, go to the library.”

I spent three years at university and didn't get laid once. THANKS A LOT FRANK

It's a tiny, tiny footnote to the dialectics of poodle play, but I'm still intrigued by the fact that Zappa was a massive fan of 'Supernaut' by Black Sabbath - I wonder why that one in particular struck a chord? I mean, of course it's great, it's Sabbath at some kind of peak, but this was at a time when Sabbath were far from being critical darlings, and far from fitting in with the muso fusion world that Zappa semi-inhabitated. So I think he could be a good or interesting listener, when he wanted to be; at any rate, I would much rather read a book of his thoughts on music than his thoughts on politics, or society, or human relationships, or

Yeah he is good at curating. Likes Varese etc. I think it would be maddening if he tried to structure arguments for that stuff on paper though.

in Rome last year and some theater of regard had posters out of the classic composers: Beethoven, Bernstein, Zappa.

“Drop out of school before your mind rots from exposure to our mediocre educational system. Forget about the Senior Prom and go to the library and educate yourself if you've got any guts. Some of you like Pep rallies and plastic robots who tell you what to read.” and "“If you want to get laid, go to college. If you want an education, go to the library.”

I mean I don't even know what to say about that quote. I love libraries, I love reading, and I'm something of an autodidact, but you know what else helps me learn? _Being taught_. I think it's pretty fucked up that he's got this exaggerated hostility towards being taught something he doesn't know by somebody else.

It strikes me that Zappa _especially_ could have stood to learn how to treat other people with kindness and respect.

Yeah him and Beefheart both treated some people like crap. That's why FZ eventually just had hired guns in his band, but even doing that kind of vibe even led his own bands to turn upon themselves. I think he was just an OCD autodidact that really had little time for anything or anyone except his muse.

I listened to Halloween '73 yesterday, the Roxy & Elsewhere band doing the standard setlist from that era, which a few fun throwbacks like "The Dog Breath Variations" and "Uncle Meat." Pretty good overall, but he introduces Ruth "Smelling Good Between The Legs" Underwood, and I'm just like... why? I guess if she was able to tolerate being in the band with him it shouldn't bother me, but... WHY?

i hate that shit sooooo much

props to underwood for being a good sport and not cracking his skull with one of her mallets but jesus christ

I heard an interview from a radio show where she said that, for years after she left the band, she and her husband Ian would refuse to speak Zappa's name to each other.

I mean I don't even know what to say about that quote. I love libraries, I love reading, and I'm something of an autodidact, but you know what else helps me learn? _Being taught_. I think it's pretty fucked up that he's got this exaggerated hostility towards being taught something he doesn't know by somebody else.

The idea in that quote is totally incoherent anyway. Who does he think wrote a lot of those books or curated them for the libraries?

he did his own research

Yeah as a dropout myself I’ve come to realise learning from books isn’t really being “self taught” whatever your monstrous ego would like to think

(Fuck fz and his terrible art as ever)

idk “teachers/schools/education system rots your brain” is a pretty common thing to hear from counterculture types of a certain generation … it’s not that weird to me?

also schools have changed a lot

He's writing liner notes in 1966 to a presumed audience of teenagers, though; surely the curriculum of the average high-school of the era was sub-adequate for the sort of things that Zappa considered important. Like "we don't need no education" didn't mean "everyone should be illiterate".

Sure, that doesn't make it coherent! Like when Iggy Pop said that he didn't want the Stooges to play campuses because really intellectual people like the profs might get it but the students have a herd mentality or they wouldn't be in uni in the first place - how do you think the profs became profs?xps

As cultural criticism it’s on the same level as your average dipshit boomer Facebook meme (sub plastic robots and pep rallies for TEH KARDASHIANS or whatever), which is to say, Frank’s level

tbf he also despised the counterculture lol

then let’s pretend i used a more precise description

dipshit boomer still works just sayin

Sure, that doesn't make it coherent! Like when Iggy Pop said that he didn't want the Stooges to play campuses because really intellectual people like the profs might get it but the students have a herd mentality or they wouldn't be in uni in the first place - how do you think the profs became profs?xps

― No purposes. Sounds. (Sund4r)

the bikers who threw beer bottles at iggy were all independent thinkers who spent all their time at the library

tbf he also despised the counterculture lol

― mark s

not misogynist enough obvs

Much as I love Iggy, he's got a snobbish side; read his autobiography and you'll be amazed how he thought of the other Stooges as basically tools to achieve his ends.

I listened to Halloween '73 yesterday, the Roxy & Elsewhere band doing the standard setlist from that era, which a few fun throwbacks like "The Dog Breath Variations" and "Uncle Meat." Pretty good overall, but he introduces Ruth "Smelling Good Between The Legs" Underwood, and I'm just like... why? I guess if she was able to tolerate being in the band with him it shouldn't bother me, but... WHY?

― Three Rings for the Elven Bishop (Dan Peterson)

for me it's hearing Lady Bianca talk about that concert she played where an audience was hooting for her to take her clothes off. well, she didn't take no shit, so she shot right back "Tell your mama to take her clothes off, and then tell her to go eat a rat's dick". it's great listening to the tape because you hear what zappa sounds like when he's _really uncomfortable about not having control of things_. he puts on this really jokey "Heyyyy! That's right!" voice - you know the one - and then as soon as they're back stage he tells her she was being _unprofessional_. fuck that guy.

(and his terrible art)

since we're all being pedantic ("gentleman, you can't be pedantic here it's the oh wait i see") he isn't a boomer

born 1940 = the (lol) silent generation IF ONLY

The 60s counterculture was plenty misogynist without Zappa. Zappa always seems like he was much more of a product of the 50s than the 60s.

Boomer is a state of mind I shouldn’t have to explain this to the youngest zoomer

he thought of the other Stooges as basically tools to achieve his ends.

He said something in the 90s about how, at one point, the Ashetons were trying to organize a band themselves: "they couldn't organize a fish tank without me".

Having said what I said, high school could be pretty stultifying even in the 90s so

I think I've heard that Lady Bianca show! Back in college I used to download a bunch of Zappa boots and listen to them while studying. Say what you will about the man but he's put together some really insane bands and every show has a few magic moments in it - one of them was Lady Bianca doing "You Didn't Try to Call Me". Shitty that she had to put up with that, especially knowing that Frank himself didn't have her back. Regardless of whatever ironic distance he was going for or whatever social commentary he was trying to make his fanbase sure as hell took a lot of that shit at face value which makes him not a whole lot different than Andrew Dice Clay.

Obviously there are a lot more indefensible things about the guy but one that always sticks out to me is the 84 version of We're Only In It For the Money which replaces the drums and bass. it sounds AWFUL - it's got that loud electronic snare sound and the slap bass makes it sound like someone is playing the Seinfeld theme on top of all the tracks. it does not fit in with the original recording at all and the entire mix is pretty much universally derided, even the among Zappa diehards. Frank himself defended the mix, saying he had to do it because the original masters were damaged, but that actually turned out to be a lie, since those same tapes were used to remaster the album later on. What it turned out to be was a grudge Frank had with his old bandmates, and by replacing the rhythm section it meant he wouldn't have to pay those guys royalties. So the guy was willing to ruin one of his best albums just to stick it to some guys he had a falling out with a decade ago.

Certainly not a huge deal but it kind of confirmed to me that the guy's bitterness did indeed get in the way of his work and that it probably wasn't worth venturing too much farther into his catalogue. You know, outside of the 10 or so albums I already bought.

Obviously there are a lot more indefensible things about the guy but one that always sticks out to me is the 84 version of We're Only In It For the Money which replaces the drums and bass. it sounds AWFUL - it's got that loud electronic snare sound and the slap bass makes it sound like someone is playing the Seinfeld theme on top of all the tracks. it does not fit in with the original recording at all and the entire mix is pretty much universally derided, even the among Zappa diehards. Frank himself defended the mix, saying he had to do it because the original masters were damaged, but that actually turned out to be a lie, since those same tapes were used to remaster the album later on. What it turned out to be was a grudge Frank had with his old bandmates, and by replacing the rhythm section it meant he wouldn't have to pay those guys royalties. So the guy was willing to ruin one of his best albums just to stick it to some guys he had a falling out with a decade ago.

― frogbs

on the one hand, yes, it's shitty, on the other hand, the bass player in question _was_ three-time convicted child molester roy estrada.

on the one hand, yes, it's shitty, on the other hand, the bass player in question _was_ three-time convicted child molester roy estrada.

And if that was his reason for changing it, that would have been almost admirable (as well as totally out of character). But no, it was done for the exact same reason Ozzy and Sharon Osbourne wiped the bass and drum tracks off his two best solo albums, Blizzard of Ozz and Diary of a Madman, in the early 2000s — to fuck the guys who played on the records out of a few bucks. (And as with Zappa, the original rhythm tracks were eventually restored.)

also this was like 15 years before he was convicted, so I don't think it was that

idk what the details are but I think Napoleon Murphy Brock is also a registered sex offender now, kinda makes you wonder what kind of shit they got away with back in the day. I can totally see Zappa's touring band doubling as some kind of weird sex cult

I'm getting the feeling that the consensus is "Dud."

I recently heard Chad Wackerman talking about how Zappa was so totally enamored of the sound he was getting in his studio at that particular point in the eighties, he just wanted to hear what those records old sounded like with more supple musicians and his shiny 80s drum and bass sound. Not particularly because he wanted Jimmy Carl Black or Estrada to not get any more money.