what america thinks of what the world thinks of america

as a non-American I may from time to time have a number of less than positive thoughts about US politics / culture / etc. but these will always be dwarfed by my love of so much American music (and films, books and TV to a lesser extent)

Also, there are a lot of countries you think are officially secular, but actually have state-sponsored national churches.. the Scandinavian countries, for instance. Everyone in Denmark is born a lutheran, you have to opt out if you don't want to be one

When we were founded we were the only republic on the planet.

Cautionary tale.

(xp) Not true. There was the Dutch Republic for instance, which had been around since 1588.

Many countries in the western hemisphere have jus soli birthright citizenship (makes sense!), but yes I'd agree that that belongs to the same "everybody is welcome here" ethos that I was trying to sum up with the Lazarus poem. I didn't mean they literally had that poem in mind--more the idea of a diverse multicultural nation with relatively low barriers to immigration & citizenship.

"America is a beautiful idea that we haven't fully tried yet"

Feel dumb even spelling this out, but this is also a tacit admission that as cool as, e.g., the Declaration of Independence sounds, the society that followed it utterly failed to live up to its principles

(xp) Not true. There was the Dutch Republic for instance, which had been around since 1588.

Dutch Republic was gone by 1776, yeah? So Boring's statement stands

ok but why would that matter / be meaningful?

(xp) 1795.

ah okay, I stand corrected

Even then, there was no monarchy in the Netherlands till Napoleon installed his brother as king in 1806.

there's also the much more relevant precedent of the Iroquois Confederacy and other Native American forms of democratic governance

As poster rob indicated, what is at stake here seems to be "American exceptionalism".

I agree that there are, and have been, good things about the US, whether politically, legally, culturally etc; as well as bad things.

What's not so clear to me is why the US is unique in this, if it technically shares these features with (numerous?) other nation states.

I come back to the fact that the main difference seems to be quantitative, ie: the US is bigger than other nation states with comparable constitutions. (China, Russia, others are presumably not comparable in that way. India, a democracy, I don't know.)

The other difference (perhaps following from this) is just that it has been very easy for people (like Obama et al) to spout what appears to be hot air about American exceptionalism, American values, etc, without making serious comparative analysis.

It's funny and curious that poster Tom D. is such an expert on the history of the Netherlands.

It's a revolutionary republic that has/had noble ideas behind it, whereas some wretch of a country like the UK has no interesting foundation story and has no discernible purpose or reason to exist.

(xp) I don't really know much about the Netherlands beyond the fact that the Dutch Republic was an extremely successful entity that lasted for a long time and was definitely still around when the US was founded - I got the dates and stuff from wiki.

In my experience the beautiful idea people outside the US care about is less its history and ideals and more the dubious notion than in the US you can just go there and strike it rich, which is something a lot of people in the global south are led to believe one way or another.

In my experience the beautiful idea people outside the US care about is less its history and ideals and more the dubious notion than in the US you can just go there and strike it rich, which is something a lot of people in the global south are led to believe one way or another.

I mean, the idea of the US as a giant casino is about 5% more true than the idea of the US as The Land Of The Free, so I can at least give people who are straight-up coming here to make money some credit.

i’d say money playground more than casino, as the u.s. is amazing for someone who is already rich

"It's a revolutionary republic that has/had noble ideas behind it"

Tom D: isn't that true of France, the Republic of Ireland and a lot of other places?

Reflecting a bit more on this, my thought was this, I admit unoriginal and undistinguished one: roughly:

Isn't the "beautiful dream of the US" invalidated by the origins of the US, ie: the seizure of land and genocidal war against natives?

I realise that this statement looks obvious. But is it ever taken seriously by the people who say the "beautiful dream" stuff?

I further reflected that a "better America", a road not taken, might have had to be one in which natives generously collaborated with peaceful colonists (refugees, even) and natives had leading or extensive roles in governance, society, culture, demographics, etc -- as if the "Thanksgiving" myth (?) had been taken seriously and enacted.

I suspect that this has been worked through as alternate history by speculative writers.

Frankly I think the noble ideals bit (which plenty of ppl believe about the UK as well btw, despite all evidence to the contrary - magna carta, Edmund Burke, etc.; these aren't foundational ofc but ppl will bring them up for a British exceptionalism) is an overall destructive aspect which consistently prevents countries like the US and France from a sober look at their own realities. Fuck founding ideals to live up to, find value in your fellow humans and try to make life better for them without any of that flag waving bullshit imo.

My viewpoint might, to be fair, be influenced by coming from a country whose only reason for existing is "this Belgian mercenary dude got a county given to him by the king of Castille and decided he wanted it to be a kingdom instead".

The day he quit as PM, Tony Blair said "This is the best country in the world".

I was bemused. He presented no evidence to support this statement.

Tom D: isn't that true of France, the Republic of Ireland and a lot of other places?

Yes.

My viewpoint might, to be fair, be influenced by coming from a country whose only reason for existing is "this Belgian mercenary dude got a county given to him by the king of Castille and decided he wanted it to be a kingdom instead".

Well, the UK only exists because England needed to ensure a Protestant succession to the throne and to bail out Scottish aristocrats who'd pissed away their money trying to set up a colony in Panama (which was a stupid idea but was sabotaged by England anyway).

... when I say bail out what I mean, of course, is bribe.

Every country thinks it’s exceptional, it’s just the powerful ones tend to want the others to share in their self image.

Also, if you set your country up last week I’m interested in hearing about your founding principles but if you’ve been around for centuries what matters is your track record and any special pleading about the loftiness of your unachieved ambition is gaslighting.

FWIW this looks a fair example of what I was talking about:

I’M NOT YET READY TO ABANDON THE POSSIBILITY OF AMERICA

What I can say for certain is that I’m not yet ready to abandon the possibility of America—not just for the sake of future generations of Americans but for all of humankind. I’m convinced that the pandemic we’re currently living through is both a manifestation of and a mere interruption in the relentless march toward an interconnected world, one in which peoples and cultures can’t help but collide. In that world—of global supply chains, instantaneous capital transfers, social media, transnational terrorist networks, climate change, mass migration, and ever-increasing complexity—we will learn to live together, cooperate with one another, and recognize the dignity of others, or we will perish. And so the world watches America—the only great power in history made up of people from every corner of the planet, comprising every race and faith and cultural practice—to see if our experiment in democracy can work. To see if we can do what no other nation has ever done. To see if we can actually live up to the meaning of our creed.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/11/barack-obama-i-still-believe-america/617073/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pAzEY1MfXrQ