Post a controversial music opinion

can we keep the word "creatives" out of this thread

The opposite of this phenomenon might be Jacques Brel spending years trying to reinvent himself as a filmmaker (though I haven't seen any of his movies, maybe they're great - maybe Madonna's a great film director too, but I'm not eager to find out).

Now, a record has the ability to sidestep whatever it's supposed to do. When it ends it ENDS. This was not a guy who wanted to make a statue.

A more extreme example of this mindset would be Fela Kuti, who never performed songs live that he'd already recorded. You weren't gonna hear any of the old shit if you went to see him — you were gonna hear next year's shit.

There must be a big musician who is also a great visual artist?

Peter Brötzmann. He's designed almost all of his own album covers going back to 1965, as well as gig posters, etc., etc., but he also paints, is a printmaker, builds Rauschenberg-style sculptures and has had multiple gallery exhibits of his work.

https://www.udiscovermusic.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/Ronnie-Wood-painting-web-optimised-1000.jpg

Bono dabbles in poetry, I hear.

Jonathan Richman is a pretty decent artist. I like his stuff more than Ron Wood’s anyways.

I heard he makes very nice pizza ovens as well.

Saying that Bowie doesn’t have blues in his music was a half-baked and on reflection clearly false stab in the dark. My apologies for the derail. One of his early bands was called the Manish Boys, for chrissakes.

Grimes makes her own artwork and scammed some rich person into buying an NFT of hers for 6 million or so, guess that makes her one of the most successful ones.

One of the Tool guys helps make their art and videos iirc?

(xp) Yes, there's quite a lot of blues (rock) on "The Man Who Sold the World", for instance. Also he did TWO Pretty Things songs on "Pin Ups"!

...and "I Wish You Would" by Billy Boy Arnold via the Yardbirds.

Don't know much about visual art, but my impression is that Expressionism is hard, because latter-day attempts beg so much comparison with Schiele and a or the few other original virtousi--was a flash in the pan, wasn't it, mainly because so hard not to look anti-climatic/a little pathetic in comparison (representational art became hard in the 20th Century. The full-time artists who brought back figures effectively did something different with them, like Philip Guston. Re (enthusiastic!)johnny-come-lately,celebrity art Expressionists, I'm hinking of Bowie, Ron Wood, Mellancamp, though I haven't really seen enough to judge, even as an ignorant looker.

Dylan's album cover figurative art is fun, and true enough to the music inside, one way or anotehr (on Self-Portrait, he looks like a florid housepainter doorknob going, "Whaaa?": open that door and you are not going to get another masterpiece) the celebrity art prints are fun too, and I posted some of them on one of his threads. Beefheart was smart to take another direction, and when he did it full-time, even better. I can't think of another full-time music artist who's done that.

I suspect that if Bowie had been really serious about acting, he would have wanted the same kind of control he developed in music, where he could collaborate with Visconti and Eno and some of his studio combos. To do that with a director or producer, he would have had to put in a lot more time than he had, outside of music, to build up cred in the biz, or he would have had to put up the backing, which he could have done with some of his Bowie Bonds (when he put up his catalogue as collateral on a massive 10-year investment by Prudential), and time-wise, when he stopped doing the huge tours and put out albums less frequently
Are there musicians who are "just musicians" and others who are capitol-A "Artists" or "creatives" first and foremost, and how can you tell the difference? Reminds me that after he started playing violin and trumpet and maybe some other instruments besides sax on records and stage, Ornette said that he kept in mind what he wanted to do on an instrument, not just how to play it in a technical, instruction book sense (didn't mention taking lessons, pretty sure). Seems like this was the main thing with Bowie, although he did, early on, take sax lessons from Peter Frampton's father, and xgau said something along the lines of "he's learned to sing, whoopee" re one of the records, like conventional capability was kind of irrelevant or secondary in the Bowie experience (also, he still didn't like that particular record all that much).

Oh yeah, it's from his Heathen review! (2002, so not prime time Bo, I guess, dunno)

...He has indeed Learned to Sing, thus rendering himself more the chansonnier only art-rockers ever wanted him to be, and the strain is hell on his sense of humor. The textures are nicer now, but whose aren't? And while the songwriting ain't bad, it also ain't that good. Just switch between the Black Francis cover and any other track and you'll know exactly what I mean. C+

chansonnier so this could be more a matter of taste, foible, prejudice to an extent, since xgau was always swiping at what he liked to call Yurropean artiness, despite having approved albums where Bowie did actually lower-case sing good, like most of Station To Station. But yeah, can see how he was more attracted to Bowie's brash rocker attitude early on, like, "I'm not the best muso, not a great composer, but fuck it, I'm gonna do it." Which was also what Madonna said, pretty much, at least once.

What "controversial opinion" are people discussing here?

Reminds me that after he started playing violin and trumpet and maybe some other instruments besides sax on records and stage, Ornette said that he kept in mind what he wanted to do on an instrument, not just how to play it in a technical, instruction book sense (didn't mention taking lessons, pretty sure).

Fun fact: in 1961 Bill Dixon gave Ornette three (by his count) trumpet lessons, loaned him his mouthpiece, and later took him to Frank Zottola to get his (Ornette’s) own mouthpiece made.

It’s all a rich tapestry.

Oh yeah, thanks. Think the first record of him playing trumpet was---Live At The Golden Circle? Rec. '65, released in '66. So several years of woodshedding or rumination, maybe. Also unrecorded or un(legit only?) issued performances from those years---?

There’s his 1962 Town Hall concert, but that wasn’t released until 1965. After that concert didn’t get the attention he’d hoped for, he didn’t perform or record for several years, but surely during that period he put in some serious time on the trumpet.

(Sorry, that was confusing: he didn’t play trumpet on the Town Hall show, but after that, didn’t play or record anything/anywhere for a few years.)

On a Bowie Tip, the entire "Let's Dance" concert is available on YouTube.

It's kind of like a Broadway revue.

Good singing is very much like acting, without all of the minutia and situational snags that might reveal a singer's shortcomings, but some singers have done quite well. Then again, so have comedians and other amateurs.

I’d be down for thread about good singers/musicians who are also good actors… seems like there is a lot of crossover there.

I relistened to "Sweet Thing/Candidate/Sweet Thing (Reprise)" and, yeah, he has such great ideas on guitar and sax.

When I first heard it nearly 30 years ago I thought Diamond Dogs was a dud but now I really like it.

Limmy singing Wrong Way Down a One Way Street>>>>anything by Bruce Springsteen

Limmy singing Take a Little Time>>>>Limmy singing Wrong Way Down a One Way Street>>>>anything by Bruce Springsteen

ah think it’s “doan”, like

The Phil Collins version of “You Can’t Hurry Love” has a better vocal performance than the Supremes version

boom

Take a look at me now!

now I imagine a Diana Ross cover of "Don't Lose My Number."

The only reason he covered that song was because he once saw someone hurrying love, and he wanted to invite them to his show and then make them die out of shame.

speaking of: her cover of “I Will Survive” was way better than her versions of her own hits at Glastonbury last weekend, but I doubt that controversial for anyone who’s watched that performance

xp re: Diana Ross

doubt that*’s* controversial

1998 is a terrible year for music, much worse than 1997 or 1999

I don’t know about much worse, but I agree it’s even weaker than those two. I’m a little surprised by the 1998 love on here, but a lot of it seems to be from folks who were a certain age around them.

*then

I was 15 in 1998 and can’t stand most of the shit they’re talking about in that thread lol

Watching Roisin Murphy's performance from Zagreb earlier this month, I think she's got the Bowie vibe but is far more talented and charismatic than he was.

u fiend

I don't think there's all that much love on the 1998 thread tbh!

I think most popstars are much more charismatic than Bowie

OK, that may be a little overstated.

I was glad to see ms Ross standing up and getting recognition and being able to tell that people liked her, but I can't say that she sang her songs well. I was also disappointed with the level of her skills at talking to a crowd. I would say "maybe she was nervous" if that didn't sound daft for someone so important.

Someone so important and experienced. She's been doing this since the late 50s.

I was glad to see ms Ross standing up and getting recognition and being able to tell that people liked her, but I can't say that she sang her songs well. I was also disappointed with the level of her skills at talking to a crowd. I would say "maybe she was nervous" if that didn't sound daft for someone so important.

Hasn't she always been terrible at crowd work (and human interaction in general)? I thought this was common knowledge.

Whitechocolatespaceegg >> Exile in Guyville

Oh, I totally agree with that

and I love EIG.

That is correct

no way in hell