Real love -- I'm, like, searchin' for that Queer Love -- LGBTQIA+ Love // A Thread for the Real Ones

I'm 100% with you, table. Anybody saying cis gay men aren't oppressed is full of shit. I also don't at all like this hierarchical understanding of oppression where subaltern groups have these endless fights about who's more oppressed. That's certainly not the angle I'm wanting to come at this from, and I can definitely see how someone could get that from my post.

I would say that what I'm trying to do more is... express my personal frustrations, things I've talked with other trans women about, to people who aren't trans women, necessarily. We've had to fight really hard to be recognized for who we are, and still have to fight really hard. PDX is absolutely one of the transest cities in the world, but I'm not really seeing that so far reflected in the Pride events scheduled here, and that's frustrating me.

I don’t argue personally that cis white gay men are not oppressed, I argue that it is incumbent upon cis white gay men to acknowledge their cis white male privilege and not use their gayness/queerness as misdirection from that privilege. This is almost always an internal directive more than an external one. Portland Pride should have moved the date imo

Totally, and I should have mentioned in my post that I wasn’t trying to diminish yr problems with Pride in PDX— your frustrations and mine intersect in many ways, because they’re about who holds power, and who is the arbiter of what Pride looks like. That is, I’m with you all the way regarding more trans (and specifically trans fem) representation and power in Pride proceedings. Perhaps if there were more trans and radical queer representation in Pride orgs, the whole event wouldn’t resemble another fucking shopping mall. I’ve understood for years why Pride is such a powerful and important time, particularly for young people and trans people, but for years I’ve felt nothing about Pride except the same alienation I feel about almost everything else in this country.

i mean honestly you make a really good point, it's not white cis gay men, that's a classic bit of misdirection of the sort that capital loves and i'm a sucker for falling for it again. me, of all people, a white professional trans woman, someone who people keep treating as "respectable". "respectable". i'm in the process of losing my house, i'm desperately trying to hold on to a job for a company i hate, bosses i hate, a job i stopped being able to do years ago. and i'm saying "burn it all down" to anybody who will listen, which turns out to be the choir.

i can go into target and buy a t-shirt that says "the first pride was a riot" and it was _wrong_ to stop celebrating pride like that. the people who buy these t-shirts, the people who _sell_ these t-shirts, are they priming themselves for the revival of that tradition, or are they trying to console themselves, tell themselves that we fought and won and we are "enjoying" the fruits of our victory?

Totally, and I should have mentioned in my post that I wasn’t trying to diminish yr problems with Pride in PDX— your frustrations and mine intersect in many ways, because they’re about who holds power, and who is the arbiter of what Pride looks like. That is, I’m with you all the way regarding more trans (and specifically trans fem) representation and power in Pride proceedings. Perhaps if there were more trans and radical queer representation in Pride orgs, the whole event wouldn’t resemble another fucking shopping mall. I’ve understood for years why Pride is such a powerful and important time, particularly for young people and trans people, but for years I’ve felt nothing about Pride except the same alienation I feel about almost everything else in this country.

― broccoli rabe thomas (the table is the table)

you're right, of course, that there should be more transfem and radical participation in planning, in organization. in an ideal world, absolutely, but none of the people i know have the spoons. we're tired, we're hurting, we're exhausted, and like i've said elsewhere, most of us couldn't organize a piss-up in a brewery. it does occur to me that one of the great advantages of a riot over other forms of pride is that it doesn't require extensive committee meetings to plan.

I recognize that there is a conflict between two factions of queers, those who desire queerness to become more "mainstream acceptable" and those who desire queerness to remain linked with upheaval and separation from what is "mainstream acceptable". My stance on this changes, depending on the context. Sometimes I feel that the corporatization of Pride is inherently a net positive thing for creating a safer environment for (broadly) queers, sometimes I feel the opposite, that it is stratifying, depending on the gesture. The public transit system have elected to promote Pride by hashtag-rebranding certain subway stations in a yassifying way; Queen becomes Qween, Wellesley becomes Welleslay. I don't know how I feel about this politically, but aesthetically it is really ugly

Some friends and I the other night started joke-naming the remaining subway stations. Islington became Jizzlington, Eglinton became Peglinton, Pape became Gape, Laurence became Clitaurence, Coxwell became Cock Swell, and so on

I recognize that there is a conflict between two factions of queers, those who desire queerness to become more "mainstream acceptable" and those who desire queerness to remain linked with upheaval and separation from what is "mainstream acceptable". My stance on this changes, depending on the context.

― a legible shriek (flamboyant goon tie included)

I feel like I kind of split the difference between these factions - I want revolutionary queer anticapitalism to become mainstream acceptable!

Somewhere I read a tweet in the last week saying, in effect, this year -- the year of "don't say gay," the proliferation of anti-trans legislation and sentiment, and sudden existential doubt about the future of marriage equality, etc. -- the corporatization of pride feels a lot less disturbing.

I, on the other hand, find no genuine comfort in the idea that "the people" are, statistically, below corporations in anyone's eyes in terms of humanism. However true it might feel.

i'm having two friends stay over with us for pride weekend here and it has been an amazing treat. one of them is ex military and trans, lives on a paiute reservation in southern utah. she is quite skilled in both engineering stuff and food / chef stuff. it's felt so good to listen to her stories. i do envy the aspect of having pay and health care taken care of for the remainder of one's life, but not the trauma and physical sacrifice of being in the military.

i've had a real busy dj weekend and while the feeling i've been having is mostly "overwhelmed' it has also been mostly bright, fun and positive. i need to remember that.

Somewhere I read a tweet in the last week saying, in effect, this year -- the year of "don't say gay," the proliferation of anti-trans legislation and sentiment, and sudden existential doubt about the future of marriage equality, etc. -- the corporatization of pride feels a lot less disturbing.

― Eggs Benedick (Eric H.)

i'm the absolute opposite! corporations aren't working for _us_. they're not doing anything for _us_. corporations run america, fucking own america. they have the power here. they're getting the politicians elected. they provide the lobbyists, write the bills, fund the advertising. if corporations actually _supported_ queer and trans people the shit that's happening now _wouldn't be happening_.

I mean, yeah, that’s the obvious takeaway. The question is once corporations start quieting their support down over the next decade, then what?

Kate, thank you for sharing your thoughts on Pride. as a gender fluid middle eastern immigrant, I sometimes feel the same way you do about the celebration's demographic, and feel fortunate to be in the company of queer people of color in the midst of all that. I've been doing some thinking about what it means to be "foreign" within a queer community, and while I'm trying to keep in mind that I don't need to be critical of something just because I am foreign to it, I think you're right to say what you say.

I also strongly agree with the sentiment that the key is conversation and not a competition for most marginalized, but it's an easy line to blur and I've been there recently myself. I was lucky enough to be in a conversation with friends who I trust and were quick to point out to me that I was completely missing the point.

ps Alfred your haircut is sickkkkkk

Reading this thread makes it clear to me that I'm an assimilationist. Older gay men and women have been accepted into the mainstream for the most part, which after a half a lifetime of arguing for gay marriage really gratifies me.

I know younger people don't necessarily feel the same.

I mean, yeah, that’s the obvious takeaway. The question is once corporations start quieting their support down over the next decade, then what?

― Eggs Benedick (Eric H.)

i'm afraid i don't understand the question :(

Reading this thread makes it clear to me that I'm an assimilationist. Older gay men and women have been accepted into the mainstream for the most part, which after a half a lifetime of arguing for gay marriage really gratifies me.

I know younger people don't necessarily feel the same.

― Dan S

lol, how old do you think i _am_ dan?

:) I assumed younger than me, since I'm like almost the oldest peron on this board

Corporations move slowly but I think they lead politicians in social acceptance. I want to see acceptance for younger queers, non-binary people and trans women and men

Thanks, Swen!

This thread has been life for me today

:) I assumed younger than me, since I'm like almost the oldest peron on this board

Corporations move slowly but I think they lead politicians in social acceptance. I want to see acceptance for younger queers, non-binary people and trans women and men

― Dan S

well i probably _am_ younger than you but in trans terms i'm positively methuselan

i mean, these ideas, "mainstream", "acceptance", they used to be really important to me, like, seven years ago, and it's really different now. my transness in some sense relates to a fundamental crack in the way i understood reality, the liberal norms i had internalized, and it was only that crack that made way for my existence.

i don't like that it's _up_ to them to accept or reject me, i don't like that they have that _choice_, knowing that damn near everyone chose "reject" for the first 30+ years of my life, knowing that i was coerced into rejecting myself, that generations of queer people fought for decades just so i had the ability to even _know_ who i was, to _understand_ myself

and part of that fight, maybe, part of that fight is that there _is_ no mainstream, no grand governing body that can say "trans people are OK" or "trans people are not OK", the old order, the "mainstream" i grew up under, was one where the overt _goal_ was for us to be invisible. if people now want to erase me, well, sure, they can do it, but no _longer_ can they coerce me into erasing myself. all the trust i placed in the "mainstream" was badly misplaced. it hurt me a lot to do that. i don't want to be "accepted", i want to be _celebrated_ and _loved_ for who i am.

trans assimilationism has been tried, and failed. maybe it can work for us, but i'm not aware of any particular evidence in favor of that hypothesis.

so many important ideas in there. the being coerced into rejecting yourself thing is an especially fresh bit of hell. I'll tell you one thing i know is not for me is marriage, I think because of a lot of the issues you allude to here. it's a real Stockholm Syndrome issue for me.

so many important ideas in there. the being coerced into rejecting yourself thing is an especially fresh bit of hell.

― Swen

it really is! one of the quotes that really resonates with me is a quote by andre malraux, a french writer who's perhaps best-known these days for his uncredited contribution to the "Castlevania: Symphony of the Night" script:

"The attempt to force human beings to despise themselves… is what I call hell."

i mean, by that definition, i guess i literally went through hell for decades. that people hate me for who i am, particularly with the frequency and vehemence that they do lately, is fucking terrifying, to be certain. i used to feel that way about _myself_, though. i'm happy to pass on that burden to them. it's their hatred, not mine. let them live with it. i don't believe they'll find it any easier than i did.

Oo I didn’t realize that line was a quote

Wonder which French philosopher contributed “what is a man? A miserable little pile of secrets!”

Count Dracula iirc

Wonder which French philosopher contributed “what is a man? A miserable little pile of secrets!”

― a legible shriek (flamboyant goon tie included)

that was the reference i was making, that was literally andre malraux, that other quote isn't in SOTN afaik

mood

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FUfNJhnWYAAINzK?format=jpg&name=large

i'm less grumpy about pride but more convinced than ever that, for me personally but also maybe more than personally, while affirming gender and sex identity is very important, it has to work within a larger ethos, way of life, level of engagement for it to "do something". that way of life, for a number of reasons, is one that resists relations that are highly capital-structured and looks for relations that are more gentle and attuned to a larger range of human needs, in another word that are more loving.

omg Kate is back???!! 😍

that was the reference i was making, that was literally andre malraux, that other quote isn't in SOTN afaik

Too bad, it's a good quote

i definitely think there should be an anniversary remaster of SOTN where all of dracula's dialogue is andre malraux quotes. in the meantime i do all i can by quoting that line all the time, along with that hillel the elder thing

btw I see this thread title and think:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-FUquLYdxQ

(time to re-inject levity)

See, I immediately go to this one in my brain, even though it's not "Real Love" but "Free Love"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3zvAYng7dc

I think it's because I used to play an edit of it out quite a lot, so it sort of rides in my brain.

I remember Free Love predating my coming out slightly. I was really into Cheryl Lynn's Got To Be Real, Blondie's Heart of Glass, Donna Summer's I Feel Love and Stephanie Mills' Never Knew Love Like This Before

I remember feeling that the world was finally opening up to me listening to those songs

Nice. I love that Stephanie Mills track, it is sublime. I mean I love all of them, but I like that one best.

This Mills track (among many) kills me:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNNaQlgCSss

I was 4 or so when I sat next to my very old German grandpa and watched him swallow a raw egg for breakfast. It repulsed me and I recoiled. He was fearsome and totally straight and I knew in that moment I was different from him. I thought my cringing at the time disappointed him.

He knew even that early in my life that I was gay though. And this is someone born in 1874! We had a contentious relationship for the next several years, but we bonded and he is the person I most admire and in whose footsteps I've followed

I've only been to one relatively recent pride parade. I wore lots of eye glitter, which I love but I don't usually feel safe wearing it in public.

Probably most of us are living with a fear of persecution, to different degrees. I know for me and others there are lots of things feeding into that besides sexuality, and it's complicated. But it's shaped my life in ways I'm only beginning to understand.

One of the important aspects of pride, and a big part its appeal for me, is its ability to function as an excorcism of those fears and that repression. The extensive corporate branding and presence feels co-opting in the moment and its effect has been to pull me out of that space, ultimately.

It's also a problem because to the extent that pride functions as this kind of exorcism, it centers the cis gay male experience of disclosure in degrees, or weaving in and out of the shadows.

I honestly think pride celebrations probably need to take a completely new shape in order to be more inclusive of, in particular, trans women and men. So the LGBTQIA+ community should want to retain control of the form our celebrations take, we shouldn't cede that influence to massive corporations who are only invested in pride as an opportunity to push their brands.

My yearly bump to say that while I am totally in favour of Pride, I avoid it like I avoid any activity that takes place outdoors during the summer.

So after all these years interacting with y'all in person or on these threads, I've an idea about your milieus -- generally, I suppose. Who forms part of your circle? Me, my group comprises cis straight males and their spouses, straight women and their spouses, some gays who flit in and out of the main group, and sundry acquaintances whom I hang out with less often.

Really fun to see this year's Pride month being met with an even higher level of anti-LGBTQ culture war hysteria.

Our small circle of good friends are all cis, mostly hetero, mostly female (plus, in some cases, their male spouses), diverse only in terms of racial makeup. Historically, the few close friendships I've had have all been with hetero men.

We've lived in our current city since 2015, during which we have only managed to make one really close new(ish) friend, another hetero male. Our social circle seemed to be expanding for a while, but the pandemic killed that, and we still haven't really managed to readjust to social life.

It is worth mentioning that I am just not a terribly social person; to paraphrase Fiona Apple: my dogs, my man, and my writing are my holy trinity.

I'd say my truly core group of friends is roughly 30-40% gay men. The rest is basically a straight mix, even split. My married lesbian couple moved to L.A.

my core friend group where i live consists of mostly straight couples (ie men and women in LTRs with each other, some of whom now have kids), one other gay couple, one lesbian, and us. i have maybe one or two close gay friends who i'm still in touch with from college, all my other good college pals are heteros. beyond this close circle, it's pretty mixed, some queers of all types that i'm on friendly terms with but not close to, and a good deal of str8s too. i’d say my husband's situation is pretty similar to mine.

i love my hetero friends dearly but i'm not gonna lie, when i see photos of groups of gay men who are all good friends hanging out with each other on socmed, having dinner or going on trips together and whatnot, i get a little jealous because i've never really had that in my life. i can count my close gay male friends on one hand and still have fingers left over. there's reasons for this i'm sure but i don't want to bore the thread with self-analysis.

I feel you, donna.

i'm an introvert i.e. it takes energy i don't always have to socialize, especially with people who have any kind of social status from my pov, which just adds feeling intimidated to the mix of social anxiety i experience. that being said when i'm relatively relaxed my social skills aren't bad.

djing again has forced me to be social and i'm surprised to find we're going to dinner with another gay couple regularly and there are two or three new gay men i'm friendly with.

we also had two guests stay with us over pride weekend, a longtime fb friend (gay man) and his friend (queer trans woman). they spoke a fair amount about being involved with a group here that provides queer people with community and often family substitute type relationships. it really piqued my interest and i can see myself becoming more involved with something like that. you could tell the trans woman was offering the gay man a bit of motherly protection and guidance. said gay man is suffering the trauma anyone raised in a conservative religious environment suffers and has been struggling the past few years. struggling financially but doesn't talk about it and creates abundance through their outfits etc which they jokingly called a "tr*** tornado". i have a hunch they might be on a trans journey but it isn't my place to say.

i can see myself being more motivated to be social with queer people who need family, because that's also me. i'm realizing that type of relationship is a very serious undertaking and not something that happens overnight, it also doesn't have to be "all in" every time with every person - you can offer smaller amounts of yourself that you feel able to offer when and how you can.

I've followed your last-paragraph advice when I deal with family. Conserving psychic energy is healthy!