If you could pack up and move your whole life, where would you go?

I just cannot imagine answering this Q with a place in a red state, even a great one like NOLA.

Yep, I get this, and it's something my wife and I have talked about a lot. Of course we live in a blue city/red state right now, so on one hand it's a dynamic we're used to but on the other I'm not gonna lie, it's gotten harder in recent years as the GOP supermajority has gotten more and more aggressive. It's just depressing to live governed by so much hate and stupidity.

BUT. I also believe that there's a lot of value in being in red states, to the degree one can stand it, because there are lots of people here who need help and also a lot more progressive people and organizations than it probably appears from the outside. Even in Tennessee and Louisiana, where Trump won about 60 percent of the vote, that's 4 out of 10 people who voted against him. These states are not monoliths by any means.

Also however there's the small matter that my wife was born in Florida and grew up in Tennessee and has no desire to live anywhere substantially colder. Global warming isn't going to happen fast enough to make the Northeast or Chicago an appealing prospect to her.

Still and all, the anti-abortion regimes in all of these states could become a factor in our plans in the next few years. We'll see.

I think about Oregon, esp. now and through, say, mid-October, but I am self-conscious about how much Oregon hates Californian ex-pats.

― sarahell

Look, it's mostly performative. Inter-state rivalry, like how Michiganders and Ohioans are expected to loathe each other. The main reason we hate Californians is because they're the only ones who come here and say "Oh my God, it's so much _cheaper_ to live here!", and promptly go on to drive up real estate prices even further, but it's not like it's something any of y'all have a _choice_ in. Plus, once you've lived here for three weeks you're basically a native and nobody cares.

xp tipsy, those are all good points. I know it isn't all that hard to find bastions of sanity in most corners of this country, and there is something admirable and important about sticking with a place where you have history and connection to do whatever small part you can to decelerate the descent into wherever we're headed. Also, and this goes to what you said about your wife assuming it is more than just the temperature that keeps her attached, I think for many people it is not so easy to just pick up and resettle in a place that doesn't have some resemblance and connection to the culture you grew up in. I do admire those who can do it but I don't think it's a weakness to feel and recognize that pull.

lol rereading my post - looks like i find both staying where you're from and venturing out to points unknown to be worthy of my admiration. Good work, everyone!

I'll also say this for Louisiana vs. Tennessee, it would be some small comfort to me to move to a majority Catholic state from a majority Baptist one. I'm not religious and have a very dim view of the conservative factions of both denominations, but ... at least Catholics have some traditions of education and intellectual pursuit. In Tennessee I've become increasingly aware of the cultural constraints and limitations of the state's hardcore Baptist/evangelical heritage. We had the Scopes trial here for a reason.

"think of all the things that keep you where you are. maybe you already found your place. but if you didn't have the things you love (family, friends) and loathe (work, loans, unhappy obligations) keeping you where you are, where would you go?

― Bruce Stingbean (Karl Malone)"

I did this, in 2017. After the panic and the sobbing subsided on November 9, 2016, the next thing I realized was that I couldn't stay in Indiana. I fucking had to get out before it was too late. Looked at Canada, but it would've taken a lot of time and effort to try to get in there, and at my age it was pretty unlikely they would've taken me. Picked Portland, Oregon. Had a friend there. Everyone who'd been there raved about it. Was lucky to have a substantial inheritance from my dad, so I could afford to give it a shot for six months or so and see if I could make it work out.

I can't see myself ever leaving.

""everywhere sucks, go inside yourself."

Might've been said jokingly but doing the inner work is probably as important, otherwise you are just moving the misery around.

― xyzzzz__"

When I told people in Indiana that I was moving, a lot of them disapproved. "You can't run away from your problems," they told me. It turns out those people were, in fact, the problems, I could run away from them, and I was well-advised to do so.

"lmfao at so many of you choosing somewhere inside the confirmed dystopia that is the USA

― imago"

Versus what, LJ? Fucking _England_? Jesus Christ. What England is doing to trans people right now is fucking _genocide_. I finished my transition, bottom surgery and everything, while some of my friends who started at the same time are still on the waiting list for a fucking GIC to get hormones. Gender dysphoria kills, and the TERFs who set policy in the Salo-esque rump state of your appalling genocide-based empire fucking well know it.

You may know this already, since I bring it up in every fucking post I make, but I'm a trans woman. Since I'm also white, the pac NW, Portland, is the best fucking place in the world for me to be. Being here not only gives me the community I need to stay alive, but gave me an environment where I was able to understand who I was and transition in the first place.

Yes, America is a fascist dystopian hellscape. It's also the world's major superpower, a behemoth whose reach and power is, in practical terms, inescapable _anywhere_ in the world. It's _also_ - and people who don't live here maybe don't realize this - functionally not one country. Portland is seeing internal refugees. Trans people are coming from red states, abandoning everything, leaving everything behind, to be here, even if it means living on the streets, because if you're trans, it's becoming increasingly clear that where you live can, in many cases, make the difference between life and death.

When I told people in Indiana that I was moving, a lot of them disapproved. "You can't run away from your problems," they told me. It turns out those people were, in fact, the problems, I could run away from them, and I was well-advised to do so.

*mashes Correct button*

"When I told people in Indiana that I was moving, a lot of them disapproved. "You can't run away from your problems," they told me. It turns out those people were, in fact, the problems, I could run away from them, and I was well-advised to do so."

Sure but so many problems aren't to do with where you are at. As you say when you reply to LJ, it's no point moving from the US to the UK if you are transitioning. It's worse, in fact. But as far as my short response goes it depends on what you are working on to improve in your life. If it's the way you relate to people your environment may improve that, but I'd say the work you are doing there is of a different order altogether.

as i said when i was part of a large debate about whether salt or pepper was better - i think both salt and pepper can be important

Running away could also imply you caused chaos and unhappiness where you were at. Running away could be said to be irresponsible, for one, and ultimately a short-term solution to a long-term problem. What will stop you from causing chaos where you go? xp

yes what this thread needs is more posts questioning the thread premise instead of engaging with it

“The unexamined life is not worth living.” -- Socrates

But after some real consideration (Chicago -- too cold, Oaxaca -- too far), a trip to New Orleans in February settled it. It's always been one of our favorite places, my wife lived there for a few years, I have family from there and have always loved it. I agree with the above statement that there are a lot of forces at work on it, definitely not all positive, but there's still a strong New Orleans culture that's very real and ground-level. And it's just not like anywhere else in America (or anywhere — it's always seemed like a bit of a mythological port city to me). Also I feel like it's sort of eternally expecting apocalypse, and they're ahead of the rest of us in figuring out how to live with that.

So that's our current thinking. We have some time to work out the logistics.

― a man often referred to in the news media as the Duke of Saxony (tipsy mothra), Monday, May 30, 2022 10:39 AM (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink

i have a few different good friends from the old days who also made their way to new orleans and never left. i've only been a few times, but it's the american city that is the least american and will always hold a place of honor because of that

― Bruce Stingbean (Karl Malone), Monday, May 30, 2022 11:52 AM (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink

I visited last month and -- well, I never fall in love with cities and fell in love with this one.

not your first time, was it? i imagine you taking weekend trips to NOLA all the time (although i know it's farther than it seems from FL)

First time, hence my hesitation. And, yeah, the proximity is quite attractive: an 87-minute flight to a city with some of the best restaurants and music I've experienced.

NO was transformational for me the one brief time I went. will def be back.

i think most of us agree that new order was legendary, but we can't go back. that doesn't diminish all of those wonderful experiences

i apologize for that joke there, haha

it's the american city that is the least american

Agree with this, it's absolutely the most unique city in the U.S..

In terms of arts stuff, sometimes it seems appealing to move to one of these small towns in Wisconsin that are like tiny blue dots in a sea of red, and have tight-knit artist communities. Thinking of La Crosse, Viroqua, Spring Green, etc. The benefit seems that there's room to create whatever you want, and there's a small but appreciative community there to support the local cafe, music series, arts space, etc when it's the only one. And rent/housing prices are cheaper than in a city. Obviously, there are ton of potential downsides to this situation as well, but I've met some cool people from these places.

xpost

how does it feel to treat me like you do?

xxpost ;)

Also I feel like it's sort of eternally expecting apocalypse, and they're ahead of the rest of us in figuring out how to live with that.

Katrina would like a word with you. So would the ever-disappearing wetlands.

Ignoring all practicalities: the Faroe Islands
Taking practicalities into consideration, a realistic destination: New Zealand

I thought we’d stay in the US once I moved here but since 2016 I’ve been more homesick for nz.

I like living in Ottawa, and the area I'm in right now is pretty ideal - a really great book store and theatre just around the corner, two good university libraries within walking distance, lots of bike trails. Unfortunately I'm going to have to move within the next year, probably, because it's too expensive for me to live here on my own.

If I could go anywhere... it would be interesting to live in a huge city for at least a bit. Tokyo maybe.

Katrina would like a word with you. So would the ever-disappearing wetlands.

Yeah, that's why I said "live with it" rather than prevent or avoid. New Orleans is gonna keep on being New Orleans until eventually there is no more New Orleans. But optimistically, that may not happen in my lifetime.

Running away could also imply you caused chaos and unhappiness where you were at. Running away could be said to be irresponsible, for one, and ultimately a short-term solution to a long-term problem. What will stop you from causing chaos where you go? xp

― xyzzzz__

xyzzz, i am a trans chaos lesbian and gender witch. what stops me from causing chaos where i am is the fucking police. i face several long-term problems, one of which is that a lot of people would like to see kate abigail... dead. i'd love to have a long-term solution to that, but that's not practical right now. every day i'm still alive, despite the fact that a lot of people would very much prefer that i not be, is a goddamn triumph.

i feel we're perhaps coming at this from slightly different perspectives.

We definitely are.

point taken re: USA being loads of different countries, altho my point was more that some may be running the risk of have their dystopian cake (calling the USA a dystopia) and eating it too (choosing somewhere in the USA over every other place in the world, given a free hypothetical choice)

I also didn't specify my own answer, and whether it is in the UK or not (honestly I'd need to think about it a lot)

but if one gratifying thing has happened it is alphie going full Eileen Drewery, jesus christ

Don't think you can do thinking imago.

Coming from the cracked halfwit who just told a trans person they may have been the problem

I don't know why this community tolerates you, you've gone

You've attempted to form thoughts and read the situation. Please don't try things you aren't capable of.

You sound exactly as deranged as you are

I'll also say this for Louisiana vs. Tennessee, it would be some small comfort to me to move to a majority Catholic state from a majority Baptist one. I'm not religious and have a very dim view of the conservative factions of both denominations, but ... at least Catholics have some traditions of education and intellectual pursuit. In Tennessee I've become increasingly aware of the cultural constraints and limitations of the state's hardcore Baptist/evangelical heritage. We had the Scopes trial here for a reason.

you're both barmy, clearly ralph wiggum was saying that he is really good at sleep

xp to lj and xyzzzz

my criteria for where i'd like to eventually be, based on reasons why i'm unhappy with where i am now:

i'd like to find a cultural atmosphere that is less actively discouraging when it comes to creating solidarity among working people.
a place that has made some progress toward addressing its colonial / gendered violence in real ways, or is at least not actively brutalizing groups of people.
a place that isn't at the top of the list for well-off bourgeois ex-pats (if it has an nytimes article written about it then forget about it, i can't afford it).
access to trail running within the urban area - a large undeveloped park or riverfront trail or something like that.

Coming from the cracked halfwit who just told a trans person they may have been the problem

― imago

having said that please do not use my transness as supporting evidence as to why xyzzzz is a dum-dum and you are a smarty-smart, it comes off as kinda tokenizing and gross tbh

the road to hell eh

say hi to harry benjamin when you get there

Mexico City seems to contain everywhere. I'd move there first and then figure out how many blocks and in which direction to move finally.

I’ve never been. But a very well-traveled old friend of mine has always loved Mexico City the most. I need to be at least Duolingo unit 7 before I will allow myself to visit, even though I know anyone would be able to pick me out as the guy who doesn’t know things and would just start off with English to spare both of us the indignity of me having to compliment their green shirt, blue shoes, and very pretty hat.

It's _also_ - and people who don't live here maybe don't realize this - functionally not one country.

This is a very good point. I'd just add that ime many americans (not meaning you, Kate) don't appreciate this about other countries where it is also more or less the case.

I thought about the thread premise, but my answers swing between nowhere and far too many other ideas (I also really liked New Orleans on my one visit). I don't know, I'm a twice-over immigrant, so I tend to adapt to my circumstances while never really feeling like I belong somewhere indefinitely. Having immigrated as an adult, I now know just how romanticized the idea of picking up and moving to a new country can be, while paradoxically I also think more people should consider it

say hi to harry benjamin when you get there

― Kate (rushomancy)

look i wanna apologize for that response. the fuck do you know about harry benjamin? i feel like i wanna do better than that.

i know this is gonna sound weird given that i'm the lady for whom literally fucking everything is about my being trans, but what xyzzzzzzz said had nothing to do with my being trans. they said some stuff and i disagreed in a fairly vehement fashion and honestly i feel we'd kind of reached an "agree to disagree" state on things, which for the topic at hand is perfectly acceptable.

and what you said kind of pissed me off for the reasons i outlined previously, like it kind of came off like white knighting and you know how long have we known each other here? a long-ass time. but also because there's a general problem, which is that a lot of people are fucking terrified of me. like when i talk about reclaiming my own monstrosity it's not just that transphobes think i come from the maw of hell or whatever, it's the way _allies_ act sometimes. there's a lot of shit i want to talk about sometimes, a lot of false assumptions people have, and if people aren't going to talk to me at all about anything important for fear of saying the Wrong Thing people are going to keep having those false assumptions.

like i know it's not my _responsibility_ to explain myself or justify my existence to anybody else, but it's something i personally want to do, which i can't do if cis people are remaining silent out of fear that they'll say the Bad Thing and have to cower in shame. like no you're not going to hell because you white knighted and tokenized me in some dumb internet argument, i just kind of hoped given that we kind of know each other that i could say "hey maybe don't do that" and that could be it.

anyway i've never been to nola or to mexico city but they both sound like fucking cool places to live!

enjoy reading your posts, Kate

I liked New Orleans when I visited too, but even in May it felt like an intense steam bath, I could not go outside for any length of time during the day

oh we planned our trip in April precisely to avoid the summer. I live in Miami, yet I've never known heat like the mephitic formal swamp like DC. New Orleans is also below sea level, no?

The heat and humidity in DC are NY in the summer are bad, almost unbearable, and when you're walking around you have to duck into an air conditioned shop every couple of blocks, but my experiences visiting New Orleans and Houston feel like they are on a different level

I've only been full summer in New Orleans once, it's pretty miserable. But I grew up in Rust Belt winters, I'm used to having a miserable season. Linen suits and ceiling fans are more fun than Duck boots and kerosene heaters.

Plus my wife says the miserable summers kind of bring everyone together in shared suffering. Like Carnival in reverse, but still a civic bonding.

bought land years ago in VT for my eventual retreat. that said, if i ever wanted to go place somewhere during the winter months, i fell in love with my visit to New Orleans and would go there again in a heartbeat. never understood the Florida appeal for the northern section of the US.