If you could pack up and move your whole life, where would you go?

NZ is an obvious and attractive option. I know someone who moved there from Canada with zero regrets. (She works in HC)

My other front-of-the-mind option is Uruguay. Climate-wise it sounds ideal (4 seasons, no extremes) and politically/socially it doesn’t seem to suffer a lot of the ills that plague many other Latin American countries.

(I like Canada but I’m growing out of love with it, as many of the things that felt given — a plucky but polite underdog mentality, social democratic government, institutions like the CBC and CanCon regulations [as much as there is to complain about with those, we didn’t know how good we had it] — are clearly being eroded as we subsume ourselves to USAnian culture.

Plus I fuckin hate these endless winters and mayfly-brief summers.)

I moved to NZ from the UK four years ago, also zero regrets.

Barcelona can be lovely, but the beaches were filthy when I was there, and Las Ramblas was like any other big tourist street (think you can say the same about most famous cities.) my friend went there with decent Spanish and tried to use it to communicate with the locals, and that did not go down well at all, he found he was better off just using English.

anyone who has actually left the us - how did you do it? i'm pretty sure i'd have to make more than the 45k a year i make and also not be burned out and unable to handle complex administrative tasks on a day-to-day basis.

New Zealand is really lovely, but it's so damn far from anywhere else...

Melbourne, Australia

or a city in Europe?

i have lived in the U.S. all of my 46 years and if i could leave, i think i would leave - if nothing else, for my kids' sake

this thread is kind of timely. i'm in los angeles for work currently. this place is wild. but it also seems to have, like, everything. i can see why so many people want to move to california, especially if you find a pocket of it that you vibe with

i'm borderline getting tired of canada, as well. i'm scared to make the move to the US, but everyone i know has or is moving to the US, mostly for practical reasons due to canada effing things up and there not being any jobs and the over-educated being severely underpaid. i guess it's business as usual: the feeling that the US is flourishing or at least doing way better job-wise and salary-wise while canada is turning in on itself. i do think at least where i live in canada, i find it suits me better for now, especially socially. the vibe/air is definitely different down here. very interesting

i will be spending more time in seattle and see how that goes

if i'm allowed to dream a little, i've never been to iceland or finland, but i would like to visit to see what it would be like to live there. switzerland is compared to canada a lot, so i would also like to travel there to see what it's really like

Finland:

it's either dark all the time or light all the time
everything just seems to work perfectly
death metal is normcore
even the tiniest apartment has a sauna and you will see everyone you know fully naked
the most popular flavour for any foodstuff is salted licorice
everyone is surprisingly open and friendly, in a quiet reserved sort of way, but all of them carry big knives

lol

New Zealand is really lovely, but it's so damn far from anywhere else...

That's the selling point! On The Beach didn't take a NZ detour IIRC but presumably many of them also got an extra six months to live before the nuclear apocalypse.

I haven't been a lot of places but Portugal seemed like a paradise, Porto especially. I want to spend a month there, which is actually like potentially possible.

Man it’s fucked up that if we were talking a few months ago I would have said Lviv— love it there, absolutely beautiful city with lots of weird stuff hidden around.

the south of france or belgium or hamburg or the italian alps if i could have a one bedroom apartment with a view and working not unpleasant plumbing and heating and not too harsh winters or summers and no environmental disasters lurking and no difficulty washing clothes or finding food or books or music or internet access, occasional travelers, curiosity but not overconcern or meddling or endless politics about the rest of the world, public transportation, art museums, libraries

Avignon seems quite nice, and when I was there in June a few years ago it was pleasantly low on tourists, maybe because it's hidden inside a practically unsolvable circle maze of roads.

Have friends visiting Porto right now — partly scouting it for a possible move. We’re waiting on their report back. We’re not in a hurry to leave the States just yet, but it’s good to think about options.

For the other USA folks who are mostly thinking within the confines of our own special version of 21st century dystopia - be it for economic or cultural/identity reasons - the two primary criteria to me are

- as close to a reliably progressive state govt as possible (obviously recognizing that is a low bar in 2022, i mean this only relative to other states)
- well positioned for the unfolding climate catastrophe

It is probably easier for me to say as someone who has lived most of my life in the northeast US, but I just cannot imagine answering this Q with a place in a red state, even a great one like NOLA. It just feels like things are gonna get a whole lot worse before they get better with state laws clamping down on civil rights and human tolerance and compassion. We are in the upper Pioneer Valley of Western Mass, and while it isn't like some island paradise or something we do feel like we hit the jackpot. Lots of small scale farming, no prominent natural disasters, 4 beautiful seasons. I am fortunate to have the means to live walking distance to a decently fun "downtown" (Northampton) and almost as close to lots of conserved land and natural beauty. But even if we were a bit further away from things and in a less pricy area, we'd have it pretty good. Would welcome your presence KM :)

portugal/porto actually was doable in the past couple of years, portugal had a 'golden visa' program where if you bought property there you could have an EU path to citizenship in something like 5 years. they've now changed it. but i think there's still another type of golden visa where if you live/work in portugal for over half the year each year there's a path to citizenship. it's called the retiree visa or something because it targets retirees who have pensions/social security income.

for me, the answer would be portugal or taiwan (also has a golden visa program) in terms of attainability.

*they've now changed it so that buying property in lisbon/porto/most of the coastal cities doesn't qualify. but you can still buy somewhere like, say, tomar, or guimaraes, beautiful old places inland, and that still might work, i think.

I just cannot imagine answering this Q with a place in a red state, even a great one like NOLA.

Yep, I get this, and it's something my wife and I have talked about a lot. Of course we live in a blue city/red state right now, so on one hand it's a dynamic we're used to but on the other I'm not gonna lie, it's gotten harder in recent years as the GOP supermajority has gotten more and more aggressive. It's just depressing to live governed by so much hate and stupidity.

BUT. I also believe that there's a lot of value in being in red states, to the degree one can stand it, because there are lots of people here who need help and also a lot more progressive people and organizations than it probably appears from the outside. Even in Tennessee and Louisiana, where Trump won about 60 percent of the vote, that's 4 out of 10 people who voted against him. These states are not monoliths by any means.

Also however there's the small matter that my wife was born in Florida and grew up in Tennessee and has no desire to live anywhere substantially colder. Global warming isn't going to happen fast enough to make the Northeast or Chicago an appealing prospect to her.

Still and all, the anti-abortion regimes in all of these states could become a factor in our plans in the next few years. We'll see.

I think about Oregon, esp. now and through, say, mid-October, but I am self-conscious about how much Oregon hates Californian ex-pats.

― sarahell

Look, it's mostly performative. Inter-state rivalry, like how Michiganders and Ohioans are expected to loathe each other. The main reason we hate Californians is because they're the only ones who come here and say "Oh my God, it's so much _cheaper_ to live here!", and promptly go on to drive up real estate prices even further, but it's not like it's something any of y'all have a _choice_ in. Plus, once you've lived here for three weeks you're basically a native and nobody cares.

xp tipsy, those are all good points. I know it isn't all that hard to find bastions of sanity in most corners of this country, and there is something admirable and important about sticking with a place where you have history and connection to do whatever small part you can to decelerate the descent into wherever we're headed. Also, and this goes to what you said about your wife assuming it is more than just the temperature that keeps her attached, I think for many people it is not so easy to just pick up and resettle in a place that doesn't have some resemblance and connection to the culture you grew up in. I do admire those who can do it but I don't think it's a weakness to feel and recognize that pull.

lol rereading my post - looks like i find both staying where you're from and venturing out to points unknown to be worthy of my admiration. Good work, everyone!

I'll also say this for Louisiana vs. Tennessee, it would be some small comfort to me to move to a majority Catholic state from a majority Baptist one. I'm not religious and have a very dim view of the conservative factions of both denominations, but ... at least Catholics have some traditions of education and intellectual pursuit. In Tennessee I've become increasingly aware of the cultural constraints and limitations of the state's hardcore Baptist/evangelical heritage. We had the Scopes trial here for a reason.

"think of all the things that keep you where you are. maybe you already found your place. but if you didn't have the things you love (family, friends) and loathe (work, loans, unhappy obligations) keeping you where you are, where would you go?

― Bruce Stingbean (Karl Malone)"

I did this, in 2017. After the panic and the sobbing subsided on November 9, 2016, the next thing I realized was that I couldn't stay in Indiana. I fucking had to get out before it was too late. Looked at Canada, but it would've taken a lot of time and effort to try to get in there, and at my age it was pretty unlikely they would've taken me. Picked Portland, Oregon. Had a friend there. Everyone who'd been there raved about it. Was lucky to have a substantial inheritance from my dad, so I could afford to give it a shot for six months or so and see if I could make it work out.

I can't see myself ever leaving.

""everywhere sucks, go inside yourself."

Might've been said jokingly but doing the inner work is probably as important, otherwise you are just moving the misery around.

― xyzzzz__"

When I told people in Indiana that I was moving, a lot of them disapproved. "You can't run away from your problems," they told me. It turns out those people were, in fact, the problems, I could run away from them, and I was well-advised to do so.

"lmfao at so many of you choosing somewhere inside the confirmed dystopia that is the USA

― imago"

Versus what, LJ? Fucking _England_? Jesus Christ. What England is doing to trans people right now is fucking _genocide_. I finished my transition, bottom surgery and everything, while some of my friends who started at the same time are still on the waiting list for a fucking GIC to get hormones. Gender dysphoria kills, and the TERFs who set policy in the Salo-esque rump state of your appalling genocide-based empire fucking well know it.

You may know this already, since I bring it up in every fucking post I make, but I'm a trans woman. Since I'm also white, the pac NW, Portland, is the best fucking place in the world for me to be. Being here not only gives me the community I need to stay alive, but gave me an environment where I was able to understand who I was and transition in the first place.

Yes, America is a fascist dystopian hellscape. It's also the world's major superpower, a behemoth whose reach and power is, in practical terms, inescapable _anywhere_ in the world. It's _also_ - and people who don't live here maybe don't realize this - functionally not one country. Portland is seeing internal refugees. Trans people are coming from red states, abandoning everything, leaving everything behind, to be here, even if it means living on the streets, because if you're trans, it's becoming increasingly clear that where you live can, in many cases, make the difference between life and death.

When I told people in Indiana that I was moving, a lot of them disapproved. "You can't run away from your problems," they told me. It turns out those people were, in fact, the problems, I could run away from them, and I was well-advised to do so.

*mashes Correct button*

"When I told people in Indiana that I was moving, a lot of them disapproved. "You can't run away from your problems," they told me. It turns out those people were, in fact, the problems, I could run away from them, and I was well-advised to do so."

Sure but so many problems aren't to do with where you are at. As you say when you reply to LJ, it's no point moving from the US to the UK if you are transitioning. It's worse, in fact. But as far as my short response goes it depends on what you are working on to improve in your life. If it's the way you relate to people your environment may improve that, but I'd say the work you are doing there is of a different order altogether.

as i said when i was part of a large debate about whether salt or pepper was better - i think both salt and pepper can be important

Running away could also imply you caused chaos and unhappiness where you were at. Running away could be said to be irresponsible, for one, and ultimately a short-term solution to a long-term problem. What will stop you from causing chaos where you go? xp

yes what this thread needs is more posts questioning the thread premise instead of engaging with it

“The unexamined life is not worth living.” -- Socrates

But after some real consideration (Chicago -- too cold, Oaxaca -- too far), a trip to New Orleans in February settled it. It's always been one of our favorite places, my wife lived there for a few years, I have family from there and have always loved it. I agree with the above statement that there are a lot of forces at work on it, definitely not all positive, but there's still a strong New Orleans culture that's very real and ground-level. And it's just not like anywhere else in America (or anywhere — it's always seemed like a bit of a mythological port city to me). Also I feel like it's sort of eternally expecting apocalypse, and they're ahead of the rest of us in figuring out how to live with that.

So that's our current thinking. We have some time to work out the logistics.

― a man often referred to in the news media as the Duke of Saxony (tipsy mothra), Monday, May 30, 2022 10:39 AM (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink

i have a few different good friends from the old days who also made their way to new orleans and never left. i've only been a few times, but it's the american city that is the least american and will always hold a place of honor because of that

― Bruce Stingbean (Karl Malone), Monday, May 30, 2022 11:52 AM (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink

I visited last month and -- well, I never fall in love with cities and fell in love with this one.

not your first time, was it? i imagine you taking weekend trips to NOLA all the time (although i know it's farther than it seems from FL)

First time, hence my hesitation. And, yeah, the proximity is quite attractive: an 87-minute flight to a city with some of the best restaurants and music I've experienced.

NO was transformational for me the one brief time I went. will def be back.

i think most of us agree that new order was legendary, but we can't go back. that doesn't diminish all of those wonderful experiences

i apologize for that joke there, haha

it's the american city that is the least american

Agree with this, it's absolutely the most unique city in the U.S..

In terms of arts stuff, sometimes it seems appealing to move to one of these small towns in Wisconsin that are like tiny blue dots in a sea of red, and have tight-knit artist communities. Thinking of La Crosse, Viroqua, Spring Green, etc. The benefit seems that there's room to create whatever you want, and there's a small but appreciative community there to support the local cafe, music series, arts space, etc when it's the only one. And rent/housing prices are cheaper than in a city. Obviously, there are ton of potential downsides to this situation as well, but I've met some cool people from these places.

xpost

how does it feel to treat me like you do?

xxpost ;)

Also I feel like it's sort of eternally expecting apocalypse, and they're ahead of the rest of us in figuring out how to live with that.

Katrina would like a word with you. So would the ever-disappearing wetlands.

Ignoring all practicalities: the Faroe Islands
Taking practicalities into consideration, a realistic destination: New Zealand

I thought we’d stay in the US once I moved here but since 2016 I’ve been more homesick for nz.

I like living in Ottawa, and the area I'm in right now is pretty ideal - a really great book store and theatre just around the corner, two good university libraries within walking distance, lots of bike trails. Unfortunately I'm going to have to move within the next year, probably, because it's too expensive for me to live here on my own.

If I could go anywhere... it would be interesting to live in a huge city for at least a bit. Tokyo maybe.

Katrina would like a word with you. So would the ever-disappearing wetlands.

Yeah, that's why I said "live with it" rather than prevent or avoid. New Orleans is gonna keep on being New Orleans until eventually there is no more New Orleans. But optimistically, that may not happen in my lifetime.

Running away could also imply you caused chaos and unhappiness where you were at. Running away could be said to be irresponsible, for one, and ultimately a short-term solution to a long-term problem. What will stop you from causing chaos where you go? xp

― xyzzzz__

xyzzz, i am a trans chaos lesbian and gender witch. what stops me from causing chaos where i am is the fucking police. i face several long-term problems, one of which is that a lot of people would like to see kate abigail... dead. i'd love to have a long-term solution to that, but that's not practical right now. every day i'm still alive, despite the fact that a lot of people would very much prefer that i not be, is a goddamn triumph.

i feel we're perhaps coming at this from slightly different perspectives.

We definitely are.

point taken re: USA being loads of different countries, altho my point was more that some may be running the risk of have their dystopian cake (calling the USA a dystopia) and eating it too (choosing somewhere in the USA over every other place in the world, given a free hypothetical choice)

I also didn't specify my own answer, and whether it is in the UK or not (honestly I'd need to think about it a lot)

but if one gratifying thing has happened it is alphie going full Eileen Drewery, jesus christ

Don't think you can do thinking imago.

Coming from the cracked halfwit who just told a trans person they may have been the problem

I don't know why this community tolerates you, you've gone