Lilacs Out of the Dead Land, What Are You Reading? Spring 2022

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The Water Lily Pond by Michael Siegel. A Kindle Unlimited book recommended to me by Amazon. An interesting conceit--in the near future, aging has been pretty much stopped by advancements in medical technology. The "world's greatest living painter" decides, at 128, to stop taking "the Daily" and die of old age. As far as I can tell, it's self-published, and is surprisingly well-executed, although it suffers from a lack of proof-reading.

immodesty blaise (jimbeaux), Saturday, 21 May 2022 13:15 (one year ago) link

Is GATEWAY the key Pohl novel? Looks like it's very late-career.

the pinefox, Saturday, 21 May 2022 14:00 (one year ago) link

Eminent Victorians, its insistently insouciance the source for New Yorker journalism since mid 20th century.

Malevolent Arugula (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Saturday, 21 May 2022 14:00 (one year ago) link

There is another novel written with Kornbluth: GLADIATOR-AT-LAW.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gladiator-At-Law

the pinefox, Saturday, 21 May 2022 14:02 (one year ago) link

Is GATEWAY the key Pohl novel? Looks like it's very late-career.

Yes. I almost added a late-career return to form, but felt like that might be a kind of backhanded compliment.

Apollo and the Aqueducts (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 21 May 2022 14:08 (one year ago) link

Although Shakey preferred other stuff like Jem.

Apollo and the Aqueducts (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 21 May 2022 14:11 (one year ago) link

There are two more novels written with Kornbluth - Wolfbane and Search the Sky (Pohl tinkered with the latter in the 1960s) - and quite a few short stories, again some of them completed posthumously by Pohl.

Man Plus (1976) was considered Pohl's 'late' career comeback novel, although I agree that Gateway is more fun. After that, there's a good twenty more years of novels and short stories - incredibly productive writer! Just like Brian Aldiss.

I've just finished reading Astounding: John W. Campbell, Isaac Asimov, Robert A. Heinlein, L. Ron Hubbard, and the Golden Age of Science Fiction
by Alec Nevala-Lee which I think Pinefox would find a useful adjunct to his current SF studies. As others have said, despite his unforgivable dirty old manisms, Asimov still comes out of the book as the most sane and reasonable of the main players - but that may only be because the others were SO monstrous. Pohl features (I suspect the quotes are taken mainly from his autobio) as a Campbell-sceptic mainly, but also as Asimov's agent and very late collaborator.

I didn't know that the basic idea for Caves of Steel came from Horace Gold.

Ward Fowler, Saturday, 21 May 2022 15:06 (one year ago) link

That's all promising material, WF, thanks for posting.

This ASTOUNDING book sounds very much up my space-lane. I don't know about dirty old man - my own sense of Asimov as writer, if not as person, is more of a coy asexuality, simply an embarrassment about such things - but I do imagine that Asimov would be the sanest and most decent of the main names listed (though not necessarily better than Pohl, Sheckley, Kornbluth, or others). I mean for sanity and decency, Hubbard wouldn't be your #1 choice ?!

I very much want to read THE CAVES OF STEEL, since reading Adam Roberts' recommendation of it. I suspect that it's like a longer version of one of the I, ROBOT stories. I'm interested in Horace Gold. Am sure Pohl's memoir talks about him, wonder if there are others?

the pinefox, Saturday, 21 May 2022 15:40 (one year ago) link

He always comes up. Daniel Keyes’s memoir too. He even gets a mention in the collected letters of John Cage, since Cage was an attendee at his legendary Stuyvesant Town poker game. Maybe Garland Jeffreys lives in that apartment now.

Apollo and the Aqueducts (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 21 May 2022 15:58 (one year ago) link

my memory of caves of steel is that it isn't. (it's been 9 years mind).

all the short robot stories are 'gven the 3 laws, what would happen if...?'. caves of steel is more detective story with a robot in it.

the wikipedia page has a link to a scan of the original Galaxy Magazine version on archive.org

koogs, Saturday, 21 May 2022 15:58 (one year ago) link

Another regular, Robert Sheckley, mentions him briefly here: http://aaasheckley.com/bio/page8.html

Apollo and the Aqueducts (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 21 May 2022 16:01 (one year ago) link

The main robot in The Caves of Steel is so sophisticated that there is a lot more going on in his positronic brain than just the Three Laws.

Apollo and the Aqueducts (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 21 May 2022 16:04 (one year ago) link

Not surprising about Horace Gold coming up with the idea given the way he lived in that apartment. All kinds of stories about people coming there for meetings and Horace talking through the intercom in the front room but never actually coming out in person.

Apollo and the Aqueducts (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 21 May 2022 16:08 (one year ago) link

I’m sure he gets mentioned in one of the many Asimov memoirs but couldn’t tell you which: In Memory Yet Green, In Joy Still Felt, I, Asimov, Opus 40 and a Mule or whatever.

Apollo and the Aqueducts (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 21 May 2022 16:14 (one year ago) link

Asimov well-known for being extremely handsy and having affairs with fans. There was relatively recent discussion of this but I can’t find it right now.

Apollo and the Aqueducts (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 21 May 2022 16:30 (one year ago) link

His son got totally messed up too. His nephew Eric was the one who took up the womanizing. But yeah, overall pretty sane compared to a lot of the others. Never became a Renfaire Libertarian etc. as far as I know.

Apollo and the Aqueducts (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 21 May 2022 16:32 (one year ago) link

Was just about to post that.

Lily Dale, Saturday, 21 May 2022 16:41 (one year ago) link

Just peeked at Daniel Keyes’s memoir again, which I recommend, and confirmed that Horace Gold wanted to change the ending to Flowers for Algernon.

Apollo and the Aqueducts (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 21 May 2022 16:46 (one year ago) link

Also this version, from Barry N. Malzberg’s introduction to The Galaxy Project edition of. C.M. Kornbluth’s WITH THESE HANDS:

The narrative then continues as recollected by Mills, my agent in 1973, who insisted on every detail. “We took the same train from the city home,” he said, “and on a ride back I said to Dan, ‘This is a very nice story, but I have a few suggestions.’ And Keyes burst into tears and gripped me by the lapels and said, ‘No, no, no, don’t be like Horace! Horace says that I have to keep Charlie smart. I can’t do it, I just can’t do it!’

Apollo and the Aqueducts (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 21 May 2022 16:53 (one year ago) link

Sorry, forgot to put SPOILER ALERT!

Apollo and the Aqueducts (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 21 May 2022 16:53 (one year ago) link

Finished Kevin Killian’s Shy, think I’m going to move onto the new Lisa Robertson book next.

we need outrage! we need dicks!! (the table is the table), Saturday, 21 May 2022 17:58 (one year ago) link

Chapter 62 of I, Asimov is entitled “Horace Leonard Gold.”
(xp)

Apollo and the Aqueducts (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 21 May 2022 18:13 (one year ago) link

At the risk of beating a dead astronaut, in addition to writing the amazing Astounding, Alec Nevala-Lee is really into Borges and has written several essays about him, in particular this one: https://nevalalee.wordpress.com/2017/06/21/the-borges-test/.

Apollo and the Aqueducts (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 21 May 2022 21:30 (one year ago) link

I just finished listening to the audiobook of Dead Astronauts by Jeff Vandermeer. A sort of sequel to Borne, it's a book that flirts with being weird just for weirdness's sake but manages to be a worthwhile read.

immodesty blaise (jimbeaux), Saturday, 21 May 2022 22:03 (one year ago) link

James Redd, have you really read four memoirs by Isaac Asimov?

the pinefox, Saturday, 21 May 2022 22:04 (one year ago) link

Can’t remember how many Opuses I’ve read so it might be more than that, assuming those count as memoirs.

Apollo and the Aqueducts (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 21 May 2022 22:06 (one year ago) link

Feel like the original “Dead Astronaut” was Ballard, although there were also Malzberg’s Falling Astronauts.

Apollo and the Aqueducts (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 21 May 2022 22:08 (one year ago) link

Another guy besides Nevala-Lee whose take I like is Matthew Cheney. His introduction to Delany’s The Jewel-Hinged Jaw, “Ethical Aesthetics” is kind of good overview jump-start in itself.

Apollo and the Aqueducts (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 21 May 2022 22:13 (one year ago) link

I just finished listening to the audiobook of _Dead Astronauts_ by Jeff Vandermeer. A sort of sequel to _Borne_, it's a book that flirts with being weird just for weirdness's sake but manages to be a worthwhile read.


How does this compare with the trilogy?

we need outrage! we need dicks!! (the table is the table), Saturday, 21 May 2022 22:26 (one year ago) link

The Southern Reach trilogy? You can tell it's by the same author, but it's very different stylistically, while retaining the sense of unreality that the trilogy, and especially Annihilation, had. I suppose he's exploring some of the same themes--e.g., biology and its manipulation, alienation, and corporate cynicism--and but in a different voice.

I would recommend reading Borne first. I picked up Dead Astronauts as a special on Chirp, and while it stands on its own, the earlier book provides context.

immodesty blaise (jimbeaux), Saturday, 21 May 2022 22:30 (one year ago) link

Many thanks! Devoured the Southern Reach books in early 2021, will check out the new stuff.

we need outrage! we need dicks!! (the table is the table), Sunday, 22 May 2022 00:18 (one year ago) link

I read Borne after reading the southern reach and was very disappointed. Felt quite rote by comparison.

𝔠𝔞𝔢𝔨 (caek), Sunday, 22 May 2022 00:45 (one year ago) link

Couple of lit sci-fi novellas

Stillicide by cylan Jones: thematically similar to children of men, ie unequal/divided post disaster Britain (this one’s climate change). Not as good.

The employees by Olga ravn (in translation). Very strange and eerie. Hard to follow but there is a very allusive plot. Solaris/annihilation themes but you can tell the writer is a poet. Not my cup of tea but can see what the fuss is about (eg well reviewed in the nyrb).

Out of office by Charlie warzel and Anne Helen Petersen. Vaguely leftist business/self help book. Not great tbh.

𝔠𝔞𝔢𝔨 (caek), Sunday, 22 May 2022 00:50 (one year ago) link

Hmmm, I'm only about 30% into it, but I wouldn't describe Borne as rote. Not entirely successful, perhaps, but it seems to me he was trying something different.

immodesty blaise (jimbeaux), Sunday, 22 May 2022 00:54 (one year ago) link

Rote is probably unfair. It’s much more conventional in form/voice than annihilation though.

𝔠𝔞𝔢𝔨 (caek), Sunday, 22 May 2022 00:56 (one year ago) link

Yeah, in terms of narrative structure it's much more conventional than Annihilation, let alone Dead Astronauts.

It's hard for me to think of another book that creates the sense of unreality and dread in me that Annihilation did.

immodesty blaise (jimbeaux), Sunday, 22 May 2022 01:00 (one year ago) link

Otm

𝔠𝔞𝔢𝔨 (caek), Sunday, 22 May 2022 01:14 (one year ago) link

THE WAY THE FUTURE WAS continues to be great reading. Brisk, clear, and generous to others. The world of publishers and magazines in their sketchy Manhattan rented offices - this could be a novel in itself.

the pinefox, Sunday, 22 May 2022 11:51 (one year ago) link

Have you got(ten) to the part about his blurb writing yet?

Apollo and the Aqueducts (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 22 May 2022 12:09 (one year ago) link

What, you don’t think that’s an accurate depiction of the way it was?

Apollo and the Aqueducts (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 22 May 2022 17:18 (one year ago) link

I love it!

Chuck_Tatum, Sunday, 22 May 2022 18:05 (one year ago) link

My front cover is different - this one:

https://i.gr-assets.com/images/S/compressed.photo.goodreads.com/books/1232204135l/2876791.jpg

the pinefox, Sunday, 22 May 2022 19:01 (one year ago) link

James Redd, not that part yet. It did occur to me that 'a novel about 1930s/1940s pulp offices in Manhattan' has, in a way, been written and is THE AMAZING ADVENTURES OF KAVALIER & CLAY. In that sense I think Chabon had a great idea.

the pinefox, Sunday, 22 May 2022 19:03 (one year ago) link

Of course there's a whole thread for this stuff---but speaking of Campbell and pulp offices, here's the essential Alfie Bester's encounter with both:

I wrote a few stories for Astounding, and out of that came my one demented meeting with the great John W. Campbell, Jr. I needn’t preface this account with the reminder that I worshipped Campbell from afar. I had never met him; all my stories had been submitted by mail. I hadn’t the faintest idea of what he was like, but I imagined that he was a combination of Bertrand Russell and Ernest Rutherford. So I sent off another story to Campbell, one which no show would let me tackle. The title was “Oddy and Id” and the concept was Freudian, that a man is not governed by his conscious mind but rather by his unconscious compulsions. Campbell telephoned me a week later to say that he liked the story but wanted to discuss a few changes with me. Would I come to his office? I was delighted to accept the invitation despite the fact that the editorial offices of Astounding were then the hell and gone out in the boondocks of New Jersey.

The editorial offices were in a grim factory that looked like and probably was a printing plant. The “offices” turned out to be one small office, cramped, dingy, occupied not only by Campbell but by his assistant, Miss Tarrant. My only yardstick for comparison was the glamorous network and advertising agency offices. I was dismayed.

Campbell arose from his desk and shook hands. I’m a fairly big guy but he looked enormous to me, about the size of a defensive tackle. He was dour and seemed preoccupied by matters of great moment. He sat down behind his desk. I sat down on the visitor’s chair.

“You don’t know it,” Campbell said, “you can’t have any way of knowing it, but Freud is finished.”

I stared. “If you mean the rival schools of psychiatry, Mr. Campbell, I think—”

“No I don’t. Psychiatry as we know it, is dead.”

“Oh come now, Mr. Campbell. Surely you’re joking.”

“I have never been more serious in my life. Freud has been destroyed by one of the greatest discoveries of our time.”

“What’s that?”

“Dianetics.”

“I never heard of it.”

“It was discovered by L. Ron Hubbard, and he will win the Nobel peace prize for it,” Campbell said solemnly.

“The peace prize? What for?”

“Wouldn’t the man who wiped out war win the Nobel peace prize?”

“I suppose so, but how?”

“Through dianetics.”

“I honestly don’t know what you’re talking about, Mr. Campbell.”

“Read this,” he said, and handed me a sheaf of long galley proofs. They were, I discovered later, the galleys of the very first dianetics piece to appear in Astounding.

“Read them here and now? This is an awful lot of copy.”

He nodded, shuffled some papers, spoke to Miss Tarrant and went about his business, ignoring me. I read the first galley carefully, the second not so carefully as I became bored by the dianetics mishmash. Finally I was just letting my eyes wander along, but was very careful to allow enough time for each galley so Campbell wouldn’t know I was faking. He looked very shrewd and observant to me. After a sufficient time I stacked the galleys neatly and returned them to Campbell’s desk.

“Well?” he demanded. “Will Hubbard win the peace prize?”

“It’s difficult to say. Dianetics is a most original and imaginative idea, but I’ve only been able to read through the piece once. If I could take a set of galleys home and—”

“No,” Campbell said. “There is only this one set. I’m rescheduling and pushing the article into the very next issue. It’s that important.” He handed the galleys to Miss Tarrant. “You’re blocking it,” he told me. “That’s all right. Most people do that when a new idea threatens to overturn their thinking.”

“That may well be,” I said, “but I don’t think it’s true of myself. I’m a hyperthyroid, an intellectual monkey, curious about everything.”

“No,” Campbell said, with the assurance of a diagnostician, “You’re a hyp-O-thyroid. But it’s not a question of intellect, it’s one of emotion. We conceal our emotional history from ourselves although dianetics can trace our history all the way back to the womb.”

“To the womb!”

“Yes. The foetus remembers. Come and have lunch.”

Remember, I was fresh from Madison Avenue and expense-account luncheons. We didn’t go to the Jersey equivalent of Sardi’s, “21,” or even P.J. Clark’s. He led me downstairs and we entered a tacky little lunchroom crowded with printers and file clerks; an interior room with blank walls that made every sound reverberate. I got myself a liverwurst on white, no mustard, and a coke. I can’t remember what Campbell ate.

We sat down at a small table while he continued to discourse on dianetics, the greatest salvation of the future when the world would at last be cleared of its emotional wounds. Suddenly he stood up and towered over me. “You can drive your memory back to the womb,” he said. “You can do it if you release every block, clear yourself and remember. Try it.”

“Now?”

“Now. Think. Think back. Clear yourself. Remember! You can remember when your mother tried to abort you with a button hook. You’ve never stopped hating her for it.”

Around me there were cries of “BLT down, hold the mayo. Eighty-six on the English. Combo rye, relish. Coffee shake, pick up.” And here was this grim tackle standing over me, practicing dianetics without a license. The scene was so lunatic that I began to tremble with suppressed laughter. I prayed. “Help me out of this, please. Don’t let me laugh in his face. Show me a way out.” God showed me. I looked up at Campbell and said, “You’re absolutely right, Mr. Campbell, but the emotional wounds are too much to bear. I can’t go on with this.”

He was completely satisfied. “Yes, I could see you were shaking.” He sat down again and we finished our lunch and returned to his office. It developed that the only changes he wanted in my story was the removal of all Freudian terms which dianetics had now made obsolete. I agreed, of course; they were minor and it was a great honor to appear in Astounding no matter what the price. I escaped at last and returned to civilization where I had three double gibsons and don’t be stingy with the onions.

That was my one and only meeting with John Campbell and certainly my only story conference with him. I’ve had some wild ones in the entertainment business but nothing to equal that. It reinforced my private opinion that a majority of the science fiction crowd, despite their brilliance, were missing their marbles. Perhaps that’s the price that must be paid for brilliance.


Then he gets a call from Horace Gold, who actually doesn't mess up his material---from this splendid memoir of Bester's best SF years:
https://sciencefiction.loa.org/biographies/bester_writings.php

dow, Monday, 23 May 2022 18:23 (one year ago) link

Hmm. Maybe we should listen to The Space Merchants: A Radio Play. Maybe even “The Tunnel Under the World” as well.

Apollo and the Aqueducts (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 23 May 2022 18:34 (one year ago) link

Audio links all are messed up :(

Apollo and the Aqueducts (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 23 May 2022 18:37 (one year ago) link

Listening to THE SPACE MERCHANTS: A RADIO PLAY sounds good to me!

the pinefox, Monday, 23 May 2022 20:06 (one year ago) link


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