Real love -- I'm, like, searchin' for that Queer Love -- LGBTQIA+ Love // A Thread for the Real Ones

haha, has _anyone_ here actually seen a picture of me? i have a billion but, like. trans woman. public internets. nope.

please!!!

I have seen a pic of you, Kate! I think you might have posted one a few years ago. You were wearing a cute top.

she has a _name_

sorry i know that's a corny one

lmfao Kate, i kinda knew i was setting myself up there

Hey y’all, I didn’t think I’d still be saying this at my age, but I am horny on fucking main right now and have been for the past month. Just uh, putting it out there. Husband has been not as horny but accommodating.

how is everyone else doing?

One husband is always more horny than the other, as we've sadly learned these recent years.

But that's. Fucking. Awesome.

I'm older but continue to be horny, don't count out older people

I kicked off this year's "no really we're back to normal" Pride Month by testing positive for COVID, but I'm boosted and, tbh, this is the shortest window of sickness I've ever experienced, so if I get lucky this month with or without my husband, I'll be humping one out for science.

xp it’s not just you, T. i actually just rejoined ~the apps~ this week after a three-year hiatus and hooooo boy. (my partner is currently out of town for about a month - he’s back on them too)

tabes and kate’s most recent exchange reminded me: watched the pirate yesterday and i giggled at the scene early on where judy garland snaps at gene kelly: “will you stop walking in circles around me? it’s like trying to talk to a top!” internet has broken me etc

Quite horny now that this tropical storm's a bust. Come at me.

At least buy me a drink first

Avec plaisir.

Hey y’all, I didn’t think I’d still be saying this at my age, but I am horny on fucking main right now and have been for the past month. Just uh, putting it out there. Husband has been not as horny but accommodating.

how is everyone else doing?

― broccoli rabe thomas (the table is the table)

Just re-started progesterone and uh whew. It's been pretty frustrating because I've been meaning to see people but somebody always gets COVID and it winds up being cancelled.

This is my first Pride since coming out, and I'm really frustrated about the whole thing already this year. Gone straight from "ally" to burnout, this damn quickly. Not just COVID spiking again, but the whole thing. It's not just the corporatism, it's the growing sense I have that the whole thing seems to be centered around cisgender gay men, with the rest of us just an afterthought along for the ride. Trans people are viciously and brutally under attack everywhere but when I talk to people who've been to Pride before, it's mostly by and for gay men. Gay men are centered. Particularly, in PDX, _white_ gay men, to the extent that Pride NW decided to hold Portland pride on fucking _Juneteenth_, and politely declined requests to, you know, move it. And where I'm at is, you know, boycotting would be the right thing to do but damn I need something to celebrate right now.

That's what so much queer life is, compromising with people who have the economic resources to make things happen. Which is cis gay men, particularly cis _white_ gay men. There's this idea of "rainbow capitalism" and I'm not opposed to it, but it never seems to have trickled down to anybody but cis white gay men, and I'm not sure a lot of cis white gay men seem to necessarily understand this. For the rest of us, it's the same old precarity. For us trans folks, the extreme public transphobia on display is causing us ludicrous levels of trauma, and we're just trying to be here for each other as best we can, despite none of us being at our best.

What does Pride look like in Portland? Drag shows. Lots and lots and _lots_ of drag shows. That's the public face of Pride. Look, I like drag, I think drag is fine, but just like a lot of trans women, I have a complicated relationship with drag. Quite honestly, a lot of people don't understand the _difference_ between drag queens and trans women. I've got a number of friends who, it's well-intentioned, but when they come out drag queens they know are like "Oh girl I'll help you with your makeup" and look, personally, I want to look as _little_ like a drag queen as possible.

Of course, lots of trans people do drag, there's a lot of overlap there, but the two experiences are _so_ linked in the public mind and just personally, it fucked me up for a long time. A long time. I had a lot of misconceptions about what it was to be trans, and a lot of people still have those misconceptions, and I feel like there's a lot at Pride that perpetuates those misconceptions, rather than correcting them. People can say "trans rights" all they want but a lot of people still don't understand who we are, what we are, and that's frustrating as hell to me. I'm tired of having my identity constructed in someone else's image. I want people to know me for who I am, I want to be _visible_, and Pride, well, Pride just isn't making me feel that way right now.

Pride has nothing to do with me afaic— being a target for vodka advertisements and Andrew Christian jocks isn’t my idea of liberation.

I am going to point out, tho, that I regular get called a faggot and intimidated, and I live in the most progressive voting congressional district in the US. While I am well aware of how fucked up and violent the world is for non- cis queer people and particularly trans women, I’m also getting a little ticked off when I read stuff that’s like “you aren’t oppressed.” Both can be true, particularly since like many things in the US, class is handily elided by solidarity formations that rely on identity formations. I don’t think identity formations need to be thrown to the side, obviously, but I resent being grouped in with rich white fags who have nothing to do with me except sharing a love of dicks and buttholes.

I'm 100% with you, table. Anybody saying cis gay men aren't oppressed is full of shit. I also don't at all like this hierarchical understanding of oppression where subaltern groups have these endless fights about who's more oppressed. That's certainly not the angle I'm wanting to come at this from, and I can definitely see how someone could get that from my post.

I would say that what I'm trying to do more is... express my personal frustrations, things I've talked with other trans women about, to people who aren't trans women, necessarily. We've had to fight really hard to be recognized for who we are, and still have to fight really hard. PDX is absolutely one of the transest cities in the world, but I'm not really seeing that so far reflected in the Pride events scheduled here, and that's frustrating me.

I don’t argue personally that cis white gay men are not oppressed, I argue that it is incumbent upon cis white gay men to acknowledge their cis white male privilege and not use their gayness/queerness as misdirection from that privilege. This is almost always an internal directive more than an external one. Portland Pride should have moved the date imo

Totally, and I should have mentioned in my post that I wasn’t trying to diminish yr problems with Pride in PDX— your frustrations and mine intersect in many ways, because they’re about who holds power, and who is the arbiter of what Pride looks like. That is, I’m with you all the way regarding more trans (and specifically trans fem) representation and power in Pride proceedings. Perhaps if there were more trans and radical queer representation in Pride orgs, the whole event wouldn’t resemble another fucking shopping mall. I’ve understood for years why Pride is such a powerful and important time, particularly for young people and trans people, but for years I’ve felt nothing about Pride except the same alienation I feel about almost everything else in this country.

i mean honestly you make a really good point, it's not white cis gay men, that's a classic bit of misdirection of the sort that capital loves and i'm a sucker for falling for it again. me, of all people, a white professional trans woman, someone who people keep treating as "respectable". "respectable". i'm in the process of losing my house, i'm desperately trying to hold on to a job for a company i hate, bosses i hate, a job i stopped being able to do years ago. and i'm saying "burn it all down" to anybody who will listen, which turns out to be the choir.

i can go into target and buy a t-shirt that says "the first pride was a riot" and it was _wrong_ to stop celebrating pride like that. the people who buy these t-shirts, the people who _sell_ these t-shirts, are they priming themselves for the revival of that tradition, or are they trying to console themselves, tell themselves that we fought and won and we are "enjoying" the fruits of our victory?

Totally, and I should have mentioned in my post that I wasn’t trying to diminish yr problems with Pride in PDX— your frustrations and mine intersect in many ways, because they’re about who holds power, and who is the arbiter of what Pride looks like. That is, I’m with you all the way regarding more trans (and specifically trans fem) representation and power in Pride proceedings. Perhaps if there were more trans and radical queer representation in Pride orgs, the whole event wouldn’t resemble another fucking shopping mall. I’ve understood for years why Pride is such a powerful and important time, particularly for young people and trans people, but for years I’ve felt nothing about Pride except the same alienation I feel about almost everything else in this country.

― broccoli rabe thomas (the table is the table)

you're right, of course, that there should be more transfem and radical participation in planning, in organization. in an ideal world, absolutely, but none of the people i know have the spoons. we're tired, we're hurting, we're exhausted, and like i've said elsewhere, most of us couldn't organize a piss-up in a brewery. it does occur to me that one of the great advantages of a riot over other forms of pride is that it doesn't require extensive committee meetings to plan.

I recognize that there is a conflict between two factions of queers, those who desire queerness to become more "mainstream acceptable" and those who desire queerness to remain linked with upheaval and separation from what is "mainstream acceptable". My stance on this changes, depending on the context. Sometimes I feel that the corporatization of Pride is inherently a net positive thing for creating a safer environment for (broadly) queers, sometimes I feel the opposite, that it is stratifying, depending on the gesture. The public transit system have elected to promote Pride by hashtag-rebranding certain subway stations in a yassifying way; Queen becomes Qween, Wellesley becomes Welleslay. I don't know how I feel about this politically, but aesthetically it is really ugly

Some friends and I the other night started joke-naming the remaining subway stations. Islington became Jizzlington, Eglinton became Peglinton, Pape became Gape, Laurence became Clitaurence, Coxwell became Cock Swell, and so on

I recognize that there is a conflict between two factions of queers, those who desire queerness to become more "mainstream acceptable" and those who desire queerness to remain linked with upheaval and separation from what is "mainstream acceptable". My stance on this changes, depending on the context.

― a legible shriek (flamboyant goon tie included)

I feel like I kind of split the difference between these factions - I want revolutionary queer anticapitalism to become mainstream acceptable!

Somewhere I read a tweet in the last week saying, in effect, this year -- the year of "don't say gay," the proliferation of anti-trans legislation and sentiment, and sudden existential doubt about the future of marriage equality, etc. -- the corporatization of pride feels a lot less disturbing.

I, on the other hand, find no genuine comfort in the idea that "the people" are, statistically, below corporations in anyone's eyes in terms of humanism. However true it might feel.

i'm having two friends stay over with us for pride weekend here and it has been an amazing treat. one of them is ex military and trans, lives on a paiute reservation in southern utah. she is quite skilled in both engineering stuff and food / chef stuff. it's felt so good to listen to her stories. i do envy the aspect of having pay and health care taken care of for the remainder of one's life, but not the trauma and physical sacrifice of being in the military.

i've had a real busy dj weekend and while the feeling i've been having is mostly "overwhelmed' it has also been mostly bright, fun and positive. i need to remember that.

Somewhere I read a tweet in the last week saying, in effect, this year -- the year of "don't say gay," the proliferation of anti-trans legislation and sentiment, and sudden existential doubt about the future of marriage equality, etc. -- the corporatization of pride feels a lot less disturbing.

― Eggs Benedick (Eric H.)

i'm the absolute opposite! corporations aren't working for _us_. they're not doing anything for _us_. corporations run america, fucking own america. they have the power here. they're getting the politicians elected. they provide the lobbyists, write the bills, fund the advertising. if corporations actually _supported_ queer and trans people the shit that's happening now _wouldn't be happening_.

I mean, yeah, that’s the obvious takeaway. The question is once corporations start quieting their support down over the next decade, then what?

Kate, thank you for sharing your thoughts on Pride. as a gender fluid middle eastern immigrant, I sometimes feel the same way you do about the celebration's demographic, and feel fortunate to be in the company of queer people of color in the midst of all that. I've been doing some thinking about what it means to be "foreign" within a queer community, and while I'm trying to keep in mind that I don't need to be critical of something just because I am foreign to it, I think you're right to say what you say.

I also strongly agree with the sentiment that the key is conversation and not a competition for most marginalized, but it's an easy line to blur and I've been there recently myself. I was lucky enough to be in a conversation with friends who I trust and were quick to point out to me that I was completely missing the point.

ps Alfred your haircut is sickkkkkk

Reading this thread makes it clear to me that I'm an assimilationist. Older gay men and women have been accepted into the mainstream for the most part, which after a half a lifetime of arguing for gay marriage really gratifies me.

I know younger people don't necessarily feel the same.

I mean, yeah, that’s the obvious takeaway. The question is once corporations start quieting their support down over the next decade, then what?

― Eggs Benedick (Eric H.)

i'm afraid i don't understand the question :(

Reading this thread makes it clear to me that I'm an assimilationist. Older gay men and women have been accepted into the mainstream for the most part, which after a half a lifetime of arguing for gay marriage really gratifies me.

I know younger people don't necessarily feel the same.

― Dan S

lol, how old do you think i _am_ dan?

:) I assumed younger than me, since I'm like almost the oldest peron on this board

Corporations move slowly but I think they lead politicians in social acceptance. I want to see acceptance for younger queers, non-binary people and trans women and men

Thanks, Swen!

This thread has been life for me today

:) I assumed younger than me, since I'm like almost the oldest peron on this board

Corporations move slowly but I think they lead politicians in social acceptance. I want to see acceptance for younger queers, non-binary people and trans women and men

― Dan S

well i probably _am_ younger than you but in trans terms i'm positively methuselan

i mean, these ideas, "mainstream", "acceptance", they used to be really important to me, like, seven years ago, and it's really different now. my transness in some sense relates to a fundamental crack in the way i understood reality, the liberal norms i had internalized, and it was only that crack that made way for my existence.

i don't like that it's _up_ to them to accept or reject me, i don't like that they have that _choice_, knowing that damn near everyone chose "reject" for the first 30+ years of my life, knowing that i was coerced into rejecting myself, that generations of queer people fought for decades just so i had the ability to even _know_ who i was, to _understand_ myself

and part of that fight, maybe, part of that fight is that there _is_ no mainstream, no grand governing body that can say "trans people are OK" or "trans people are not OK", the old order, the "mainstream" i grew up under, was one where the overt _goal_ was for us to be invisible. if people now want to erase me, well, sure, they can do it, but no _longer_ can they coerce me into erasing myself. all the trust i placed in the "mainstream" was badly misplaced. it hurt me a lot to do that. i don't want to be "accepted", i want to be _celebrated_ and _loved_ for who i am.

trans assimilationism has been tried, and failed. maybe it can work for us, but i'm not aware of any particular evidence in favor of that hypothesis.

so many important ideas in there. the being coerced into rejecting yourself thing is an especially fresh bit of hell. I'll tell you one thing i know is not for me is marriage, I think because of a lot of the issues you allude to here. it's a real Stockholm Syndrome issue for me.

so many important ideas in there. the being coerced into rejecting yourself thing is an especially fresh bit of hell.

― Swen

it really is! one of the quotes that really resonates with me is a quote by andre malraux, a french writer who's perhaps best-known these days for his uncredited contribution to the "Castlevania: Symphony of the Night" script:

"The attempt to force human beings to despise themselves… is what I call hell."

i mean, by that definition, i guess i literally went through hell for decades. that people hate me for who i am, particularly with the frequency and vehemence that they do lately, is fucking terrifying, to be certain. i used to feel that way about _myself_, though. i'm happy to pass on that burden to them. it's their hatred, not mine. let them live with it. i don't believe they'll find it any easier than i did.

Oo I didn’t realize that line was a quote

Wonder which French philosopher contributed “what is a man? A miserable little pile of secrets!”

Count Dracula iirc

Wonder which French philosopher contributed “what is a man? A miserable little pile of secrets!”

― a legible shriek (flamboyant goon tie included)

that was the reference i was making, that was literally andre malraux, that other quote isn't in SOTN afaik

mood

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FUfNJhnWYAAINzK?format=jpg&name=large

i'm less grumpy about pride but more convinced than ever that, for me personally but also maybe more than personally, while affirming gender and sex identity is very important, it has to work within a larger ethos, way of life, level of engagement for it to "do something". that way of life, for a number of reasons, is one that resists relations that are highly capital-structured and looks for relations that are more gentle and attuned to a larger range of human needs, in another word that are more loving.

omg Kate is back???!! 😍

that was the reference i was making, that was literally andre malraux, that other quote isn't in SOTN afaik

Too bad, it's a good quote

i definitely think there should be an anniversary remaster of SOTN where all of dracula's dialogue is andre malraux quotes. in the meantime i do all i can by quoting that line all the time, along with that hillel the elder thing

btw I see this thread title and think:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-FUquLYdxQ

(time to re-inject levity)

See, I immediately go to this one in my brain, even though it's not "Real Love" but "Free Love"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3zvAYng7dc

I think it's because I used to play an edit of it out quite a lot, so it sort of rides in my brain.