terror twilight

^^This. I'm not a big Pavement guy or anything, but I do know they had a snowball's chance in hell of breaking through on Corporate Alternative Radio in 1999, when Nu Metal, Pop Punk and Guitar Pop with a capital 'P' ruled the roost, and most 'out there' band on tbe airwaves was Cake.

In the pitchfork piece Malk mentions that he conceived the songs on TT as being closer to WZ than BtC which struck me as interesting and makes sense, although I still think of the album as more the first Malkmus solo record that just happened to have Pavement as the backing band. Maybe half or more of the WZ tunes have multi-part structure or feel like two songs grafted together; some of the more "Pavementy" songs on TT have that feeling. Also WZ and TT seem to jump around from vibe to vibe a lot more than BtC, even though TT shares with BtC the "all the songs are slow to midtempo" problem that I attribute to Malk's lack of confidence in West.

> I think the delusion by Westerberg, Mould, Hart, Malkmus, etc. that they could write a chart topper a charming thing.

Well maybe, but it definitely does happen from time to time that an underground band after years of toiling has a top US hit. In the late 90s these include breakthough hits of varying size and quality by long timers Sugar Ray, Luscious Jackson, Chumbawumba, and the Verve; and Westerberg-lite Goo Goo Dolls of course had a string of hits. Major Leagues was never gonna be that, but you can make an interesting playlist of late 90s bands doing AOR sounding vaguely retro maybe Tusk or Nightfly influenced type stuff like it by Pavement's similarly melodically gifted reforming ex-slacker peers Mercury Rev, Flaming Lips, PJ Harvey, and of course Silver Jews.

I don't blame them for trying; it resulted in fascinating songs.

xpost

Sugar Ray, Luscious Jackson, Chumbawumba, and the Verve

Different ears, etc., but those bands had a better talent for radio fodder than Malkmus -- and even "Naked Eyes" didn't rise above the top 35.

I doubt he or anyone else then-living had any illusions about Pavement in the top 10, but I dont think it would have been crazy for Malkmus or Godrich to imagine them lucking into something that did as well as "Naked Eye" or "Pepper", with the right tune & production. Obv it turned out SM didnt have the goods, but I never bought the self-sabotage storyline that he was actively running away from that kind of success. I think he would have been fine if "Spit on the Stranger" hit the top 40.

He wrote a song making fun of Steve West's drumming... before, I used to think this was just a joke, but starting to think this was passive aggressive at least.

This was obviously a dick move by Malkmus if true, but when I listen to early Pavement I'm kind of floored by how great of a drummer Gary Young was compared to Steve West (see e.g. "Jackals, False Grails: The Lonesome Era" and the entirety of Watery, Domestic). Dude was solid as a rock and tasteful but could drop fills like an octopus at exactly the right moments. The way the drums are recorded on those records makes them sound thin and papery, but the playing is way tighter than West's would ever be. I still think the best Pavement mostly came after Gary left, but they lost a great player when they let him go.

Obv it turned out SM didnt have the goods, but I never bought the self-sabotage storyline that he was actively running away from that kind of success. I think he would have been fine if "Spit on the Stranger" hit the top 40.

Sure, but there was this bizarre self-sabotaging trope in Amerindie, especially with dudes, that you can't strive openly for hits. It wasn't a problem at all in England.

Xp I think that besides all of Gary's other baggage, Malkmus wasn't particularly into having Gary's octopus arms around anymore either though, lest they knock him off his bergeoning carpet ride guitar jams mid-flight. He probably thought that West + Bob's bizzaro bits would make up for what he lost in Gary & maybe sometimes give him that 2 drummer pocket like Jerry Garcia had.

Pavement w/ Steve and mark vs Gary is a completely different band

I'm a little stoned and I imagined Tony Hadley in Pavement.

"LISTEN. to. MEEEEE. I'm on the. STEREEEEOOOOOOOOOOOOO"

No way on earth "Cut Your Hair" or "Stereo" would've gone top ten no matter how many #1 singles Kurt Cobain earned.

I doubt he or anyone else then-living had any illusions about Pavement in the top 10, but I dont think it would have been crazy for Malkmus or Godrich to imagine them lucking into something that did as well as "Naked Eye" or "Pepper", with the right tune & production. Obv it turned out SM didnt have the goods, but I never bought the self-sabotage storyline that he was actively running away from that kind of success. I think he would have been fine if "Spit on the Stranger" hit the top 40.

Feel like a lot of this is tied up in radio promotion and record/CD promotion. It doesn't seem crazy to me that Cut Your Hair or Stereo would have been hits, weirder songs have been big hits. . . I don't think it's "didn't have the goods" here it's all about them not being on a major label and getting the major label push. If you don't believe me. . . just think about Green Day for a second. Pretty big underground band that got MASSIVE when they moved to a major

Thats true, I can totally see a world where a major label push could have gotten those songs to crack the charts the late-90s charts to some extent. With "didnt have the goods" I was thinking more that the "SM as petulant, success-averse artiste" idea implies (to some extent at least) that he could have been writing more obvious catchy mainstream radio fodder but was deliberately withholding out of pride/indie cred/brattiness, which I never really bought - I think if he could have, he would have.

To my ears Green Day were better at writing scream-at-the-top-of-your-lungs radio choruses. Green Day mean little to me.

I was going to say that if a band like the Dandy Warhols could fashion a hit like "Bohemian Like You" than so could Pavement, only to find out that...Bohemian never even charted in the US.

Nor did Green Day until 2004.

You mean 1994?

Bohemian Like You b/w Bahamian Like Me

You mean 1994?

― klonman

They didn't score a top 40 hit in America until 2004. You're thinking of the modern rock chart.

Relevant quote from Malkmus in Slow Century re: Rattled by the Rush and Father to a Sister of Thought: "I was smoking a lot of pot at the time, but they sounded like hits to me."

Damn not even Good Riddance?

I think I have serious cognitive dissonance assuming the songs I heard in 90s that saturated modern rock radio were actually popular in the mainstream.

To my ears Green Day were better at writing scream-at-the-top-of-your-lungs radio choruses. Green Day mean little to me.

Great but that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about a band getting a push from a major label and having a "hit" so to speak and being massively popular etc. I think Pavement would have had a hit if they'd had the backing of a major label and a push etc.

That makes sense. And I wasn't contradicting nor arguing with you. I was making a point.

Damn not even Good Riddance?

I think I have serious cognitive dissonance assuming the songs I heard in 90s that saturated modern rock radio were actually popular in the mainstream.

― klonman

Billboard was unyielding about not allowing songs to chart without retail singles. It's possible that on airplay alone "Good Riddance" might've charted.

That makes sense. And I wasn't contradicting nor arguing with you. I was making a point.

totally. and share your non interest in Green Day

It doesn't seem crazy to me that Cut Your Hair or Stereo would have been hits, weirder songs have been big hits. . .

Weezer’s “Buddy Holly” (shudder) is the closest analogue that immediately comes to mind. Still, I think Pavement’s sound and lyrics were even “weirder” to non-indie-listening ears.

I was thinking Cannonball by the Breeders. Stereo has a similar vibe. There's a video of SM talking about the anniversary of Crooked Rain where he mentions that the Breeders were in the buzz bin on MTV and he wanted to get into the buzz bin but never did.
Last Splash went platinum!

Pavement also never wrote anything as good as Buddy Holly

Cannonball is a good call… But it’s tighter than Stereo, and has that hook

Not the point of the thread, but an elaboration of Alfred’s point: Green Day not charting on the Hot 100 until 2004 is entirely due to the old physical-singles-only rule. “Time of Your Life” was a radio hit just before Billboard allowed songs without a physical single release to chart. Longview, Basket Case, When I Come Around, J.A.R., Geek Stink Breath (!), and Time of Your Life all made the top 40 of the mainstream airplay charts. “When I Come Around” made it all the way to #6. None of the songs from “Warning,” in 2000, was a big enough hit to chart after the rule change. Anyway, carry on.

Pavement also never wrote anything as good as Buddy Holly

― PaulTMA, Thursday, April 14, 2022 11:44 AM (thirty-six minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

That'll be the Day is a classic for sure.

https://i.imgur.com/HwQEVuY.jpg

Major label push

Don't Look Up

Gotta say, TT does feel a little ahead of its time in terms of the indie rock/jam band fusion thing it has going on at points. Feel like you could put a nice through-line from Terror Twilight > Ghost is Born > Garcia Peoples and other contemporary indie jam acts.

It's notable because in 99 most indie rock fans wouldn't caught dead admitting to liking jam band stuff and vice versa.

are we sure the title with "jam" in it doesn't refer to raspberry

That’s an interesting comment, because I feel like BTC actually gets closer to jam territory. (I feel like I knew a few Phish heads in college, around that time, who became aware of Pavement.)

(maybe through me, lol)

Could very well be the case, I haven't re-visited BTC in a long time.

Definitely met a few hippies that were open to Pavement, more-so than the Mercury Revs/Beta Bands or whoever else that was getting hype in 99/00.

they def had a jam trajectory. i'd argue some songs on WZ (half a canyon, fight this generation, esp live) edged toward jamming. also otm about it not being cool at the time. . . but man there is not much difference between late era pavement and some of the "newer" songs on Europe 72

Yeah, there are moments on BTC that sound like bits of Dead jams (right down to the shaggy timekeeping). I have thought in the past that Pavement could have evolved into a Bonnaroo mainstay act, if they had stayed together and gone in that direction (...of course they would have had to become "better players," and I'm not sure if most the guys had that in them).

It's funny because it's hard to recall many honest-to-god pure guitar solos in Pavement songs, but there's a lot of moments of half-solos, instrumental passages etc., where you get a glimpse that Malk is pretty skilled.

I assume this expanded in his Jicks work but to be honest I haven't delved into the catalog (I think heard Pig Lib once and that's it).

yeah, i'd say real emotional trash is the one that really expands on that idea

Getting back to the "why didn't they have hits like other offbeat bands" thing – it's kinda interesting that Sonic Youth had two higher-charting Alternative Airplay tracks (100% and Kool Thing) than Pavement's sole "hit" (Cut Your Hair, which reached #10).

Pig Lib includes the 9min jam "1% of One", which at the time kinda felt like him shedding whatever hangups he had about formally identifying as a jamming guitar guy

Pig Lib in many ways feels super jammy but also very controlled and concise. It was like he’d gotten the self titled debut out of his system and was ready to get serious, or “serious,” or however you wanna parse that.

(If I ever pitch another 33 1/3 book it will be for Pig Lib or Washing Machine.)

Pig Lib jams are his take on Pentangle/Mellow Candle.

I’ve often thought that late-Pave and solo Malk was on a collision course with Phish. Folk Jam could easily be a Phish song. I blv Phish covered Gold Soundz live at least once.

Mellow candle, really?

Pig Lib bonus EP even features a killer cover of MC's "The Poet & the Witch"

that ep is so good i always forget about it.

also, ha, has a song called Old Jerry!