It's not just the US where you hear about "invasive species" btw. You hear a lot about it in the UK, what with being an island and all.
― Alfred Ndwego of Kenya (Tom D.), Monday, 7 March 2022 07:34 (two years ago) link
reminds me of the strange case of the murder/suicide lab technician who claimed in his suicide note it was all because of his fear of Japanese Knotweed.
― calzino, Monday, 7 March 2022 07:53 (two years ago) link
map, the nib had a recent article talking about this. The concept obviously not being that ecosystems can't be disturbed by new arrivals, but that the vocabulary around this is coded in xenophobic ways, and that this is reflected in some of the strategies employed against them as well.
― Daniel_Rf, Monday, 7 March 2022 09:02 (two years ago) link
Here it is:
https://thenib.com/invaders/
― Daniel_Rf, Monday, 7 March 2022 09:05 (two years ago) link
UK grey squirrel/red squirrel discourse is some astonishingly bloodthirsty and quasi-racist bullshit tbh yes
― imago, Monday, 7 March 2022 09:13 (two years ago) link
Any new deepfake conspiracies today?
Here it is:https://thenib.com/invaders🕸/
― Johnny Mathis der Maler (Boring, Maryland), Monday, 7 March 2022 13:17 (two years ago) link
-poop- How the hell did that get in there
― Johnny Mathis der Maler (Boring, Maryland), Monday, 7 March 2022 13:18 (two years ago) link
I'm choking on my breakfast over here.
― peace, man, Monday, 7 March 2022 13:27 (two years ago) link
English is a nice language (for Boring, Maryland to poop on).
― removing bookmarks never felt so good (PBKR), Monday, 7 March 2022 13:55 (two years ago) link
Yeah I don't buy english as somehow being a language lacking a soul or anything either, quer dizer, nĂŁo Ă© portuguĂŞs mas Ă© ok. The language no more to blame than the species brought over by the colonizers, really. But it's an aside and as you said, not gonna chide Native American ppl for getting some shots in at the dominant culture.
― Daniel_Rf, Monday, 7 March 2022 14:01 (two years ago) link
I poop blood and soil
― Johnny Mathis der Maler (Boring, Maryland), Monday, 7 March 2022 15:08 (two years ago) link
^Skrewdriver getting lazy
― i read to 69 position (Neanderthal), Monday, 7 March 2022 15:29 (two years ago) link
well it's been fun trolling national park followers who go off on completely unhinged rants about a plant.
― Nedlene Grendel as Basenji Holmo (map), Wednesday, 9 March 2022 16:09 (two years ago) link
there may be some validity to the concept of a plant species being 'invasive' i.e. disrupting an ecosystem but people who then focus their intense rage on the plant itself or the immigrants who brought it here need therapy.
― Nedlene Grendel as Basenji Holmo (map), Wednesday, 9 March 2022 16:12 (two years ago) link
and if you really think about it, it isn't immigrants who are responsible, it's ......................................capitalism
― Nedlene Grendel as Basenji Holmo (map), Wednesday, 9 March 2022 16:15 (two years ago) link
haha, i don't think most people that are into invasive plants are like that, though. one of the greatest guys i've ever met, kind of my mentor if i ever had one, at my old job, was an ecologist who spent his weekends leading small groups in expeditions to teach people to identify and remove invasive plants. he'd talk about that stuff all the time, and now that he's retired, he's stepped up his plant whacking game even more.
anyway, i would guess that anyone that has intense rage about a plant or immigrants would also rage about many other things which also don't deserve it at all, so better to unfollow/unfriend
― the world's undisputed #1 fan of 'Spud Infinity' (Karl Malone), Wednesday, 9 March 2022 16:19 (two years ago) link
i get that they are nice people but .. i remember hearing a bit about the tamarisk debate when i lived in moab. and i just never found the old guard side of it convincing at all. you hear all sorts of arguments about all the bad stuff that tamarisk does but ultimately it really is a magic eye kind of situation isn't it? you can sure raise a lot of bad things about what the act of removing tamarisk does to an ecosystem.
there is a lot of projection and dare i say religious substitution and maybe some gene selecting ideology and not a lot of clear thinking involved with these people ime. but yes they are nice.
― Nedlene Grendel as Basenji Holmo (map), Wednesday, 9 March 2022 16:29 (two years ago) link
I swear I have never seen “invasive species” associated with human immigration or whatever. Most of this stuff comes over via shipping and our glorious international trade. So this whole “trying to combat invasive species is racism” train of thought is just weird to me. The point of trying to keep non-native species at bay is to try to preserve biodiversity and endangered native species that get frequently crowded out of the ecosystem.
― Johnny Mathis der Maler (Boring, Maryland), Wednesday, 9 March 2022 16:31 (two years ago) link
― the world's undisputed #1 fan of 'Spud Infinity' (Karl Malone), Wednesday, March 9, 2022 4:19 PM (nine minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink
oh these people aren't my friends lol they're just rando followers of national parks who pushed back very emotionally after i posted a note about xenophobic overtones along with this article https://e360.yale.edu/features/native-species-or-invasive-the-distinction-blurs-as-the-world-warms
― Nedlene Grendel as Basenji Holmo (map), Wednesday, 9 March 2022 16:33 (two years ago) link
xp haha, i don't know, i'll just agree to disagree on that, sorry. whacking invasive plants is the kind of family-friendly, normal activity that you can do with children to teach them about ecology
― the world's undisputed #1 fan of 'Spud Infinity' (Karl Malone), Wednesday, 9 March 2022 16:33 (two years ago) link
I swear I have never seen “invasive species” associated with human immigration or whatever. Most of this stuff comes over via shipping and our glorious international trade. So this whole “trying to combat invasive species is racism” train of thought is just weird to me.
same
like, if i were teaching 3rd grade or whatever, i think it would be good to take them on a short field trip to learn about invasive plants
― the world's undisputed #1 fan of 'Spud Infinity' (Karl Malone), Wednesday, 9 March 2022 16:35 (two years ago) link
I mean the emerald ash borer kills ash trees. We already lost american chestnuts and elms. I’d like to not have another eastern us tree species go bye bye.
― Johnny Mathis der Maler (Boring, Maryland), Wednesday, 9 March 2022 16:37 (two years ago) link
well i have some bad news for you
― Nedlene Grendel as Basenji Holmo (map), Wednesday, 9 March 2022 16:38 (two years ago) link
Still a bit confused about whether we're talking about rhetorical framing (which is what the nib article I posted is about) or the actual effects of plants on ecosystems.
― Daniel_Rf, Wednesday, 9 March 2022 16:38 (two years ago) link
why not both?
― Nedlene Grendel as Basenji Holmo (map), Wednesday, 9 March 2022 16:39 (two years ago) link
i'm just postin tbh, drinking some coffee :)
― the world's undisputed #1 fan of 'Spud Infinity' (Karl Malone), Wednesday, 9 March 2022 16:40 (two years ago) link
Fascists will seize on anything, and there is evidence that eco fascists are performing exactly the kind of nudge nudge wink wink stuff that map is talking about. It isn’t to say that biodiversity isn’t important, of course it is, but like anything in this cursed world, beware of your fellow travelers who might agree with you on this one issue.
― mardheamac (gyac), Wednesday, 9 March 2022 16:42 (two years ago) link
we need a thread about trees. trees are cool
― Heez, Wednesday, 9 March 2022 16:45 (two years ago) link
Sometimes I feel like a character in Meredith Monk’s “Memory Game”:I remember… elm treesI remember… when it snowed in the DC area
― Johnny Mathis der Maler (Boring, Maryland), Wednesday, 9 March 2022 16:48 (two years ago) link
So glad to have spent time confirming map wasn’t imagining things :)
― mardheamac (gyac), Wednesday, 9 March 2022 16:53 (two years ago) link
― mardheamac (gyac), Wednesday, March 9, 2022 4:42 PM (seven minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink
i'm a huge fan of biodiversity. i don't actually think weedwhacking is terrible. if we could really fight species loss by *ahem* losing species i would advocate for it, but i have my doubts.
that being said, people who are really into protecting wilderness have a vibe, and that vibe is friendly to extreme stances that emphasize purity.
― Nedlene Grendel as Basenji Holmo (map), Wednesday, 9 March 2022 16:57 (two years ago) link
So says California’s civil rights agency in a lawsuit filed against the electric-vehicle maker in Alameda County Superior Court on Thursday on behalf of thousands of Black workers after a decade of complaints and a 32-month investigation.
― Whiney G. Weingarten, Friday, February 11, 2022 6:24 PM (three weeks ago)
omg ... i feel like there's something here that speaks to the focus of the vocal activists against racism and white supremacy here in Alameda County, which is very vocal and active around these issues. I don't mean this in a negative way. But, considering we had major protests in the past couple months about public school closures (due to budget issues and population shifts) that were centered around race and racism, including teachers on hunger strike ... the fact that there weren't major protests and callouts about this is noteworthy. Maybe it's because the plants are out in the suburbs idk. Again, not wanting to be a "whataboutist" just that I actually wasn't aware of it, and Alameda County activists are very good at letting people know about racist shit going on locally.
― sarahell, Wednesday, 9 March 2022 17:02 (two years ago) link
* saying "Alameda County" as a way to concisely include Oakland and Berkeley people
― sarahell, Wednesday, 9 March 2022 17:03 (two years ago) link
kudzu discourse in the south has absolutely had racist overtones (or just tones) to it
― rob, Wednesday, 9 March 2022 17:08 (two years ago) link
Yeah, sorry, there being fascist over or undertones to some rhetoric in the environmental movement doesn't mean that invasive species don't exist and aren't totally destructive to native biodiversity.
― we need outrage! we need dicks!! (the table is the table), Wednesday, 9 March 2022 17:17 (two years ago) link
To me it just seems like a real baby and bathwater moment.
"Oh these fascists are using the language of ecology to spread racist tropes? Might as well not care about the principles of ecology "
― we need outrage! we need dicks!! (the table is the table), Wednesday, 9 March 2022 17:18 (two years ago) link
To me it just seems like a real baby and bathwater moment."Oh these fascists are using the language of ecology to spread racist tropes? Might as well not care about the principles of ecology "
― mardheamac (gyac), Wednesday, 9 March 2022 17:20 (two years ago) link
I wasn't addressing anything you, just adding my pov? Why do you take everything I write as a personal assault on you? Calm down.
― we need outrage! we need dicks!! (the table is the table), Wednesday, 9 March 2022 17:25 (two years ago) link
Always a good look, telling a woman to calm down.
― mardheamac (gyac), Wednesday, 9 March 2022 17:29 (two years ago) link
xpsorry, I may have muddied things even further. I wasn't even talking about the environmental movement, just kudzu discourse in general (the "green plague" the "thug plant"). I do not think the concept of invasive species is inherently racist
― rob, Wednesday, 9 March 2022 17:30 (two years ago) link
map, not sure if you can read this but it may interest you: https://www.jstor.org/stable/26225593
― rob, Wednesday, 9 March 2022 17:36 (two years ago) link
interesting.
i don't know to what extent this is really present in ecologic discourse but i think any time there's a framing of it in terms of "original = good" and "corrupted = bad" it's a weak point. it doesn't mean that some plants aren't too far on the extreme of hogging resources to be desired in a particular environment. but in general i think people should move away from trying to "preserve" and "restore" and acknowledge that stewarding biological diversity is an act of creation that includes human input in important ways.
― Nedlene Grendel as Basenji Holmo (map), Wednesday, 9 March 2022 17:46 (two years ago) link
i'm not trying to criticize or start a beef or anything, but i'll just note that "stewarding biological diversity is an act of creation that includes human input in important ways" sounds like a slogan for an oil company
― the world's undisputed #1 fan of 'Spud Infinity' (Karl Malone), Wednesday, 9 March 2022 17:49 (two years ago) link
i agree, of course, that humans are part of the environment and that the sum of what we do and don't do has an enormous effect on the rest of it
― the world's undisputed #1 fan of 'Spud Infinity' (Karl Malone), Wednesday, 9 March 2022 17:51 (two years ago) link
but in general i think people should move away from trying to "preserve" and "restore" and acknowledge that stewarding biological diversity is an act of creation that includes human input in important ways.
And so is fomenting destruction of biodiversity, map. "Just leaving nature be" is sometimes a laudable position when talking about certain environmental issues. For example, I'm pretty firmly against off-shore wind farms, because of the amount of destruction they do to already threatened aquatic habitats. But simply allowing threatening plant species or pests to destroy important parts of North America's biodiversity because some fascist assholes use it as a cover for their fascism is a non-starter for me.
― we need outrage! we need dicks!! (the table is the table), Wednesday, 9 March 2022 18:07 (two years ago) link
ok
― Nedlene Grendel as Basenji Holmo (map), Wednesday, 9 March 2022 18:23 (two years ago) link
If the spotted lanternfly makes its way down to my county this summer, I'm picking up one of these fuckers and going to war.
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0475/2107/1253/products/BASGuns-OrangeCrush-1689.jpg?v=1634858446
― peace, man, Wednesday, 9 March 2022 18:35 (two years ago) link
i guess i'll just give an example to illustrate what i'm trying to get at. outside of boulder utah there is a small stream that runs off boulder mountain and eventually descends into the rock of the colorado plateau. right before it does, it passes through an area that used to be a cattle ranch. now it is half-ranch and half-rustic tourist resort. the ranch part still does single-crop alfalfa farming, but below that, the resort has modified the water flow in a few ways to create a very beautiful sanctuary for birds, bees, and plants. there are still areas of overgrazed and parched brush here and there, and afaik they do minimal planting or weeding to the grounds beyond a garden with a few crops, but the water motification has transformed the area into a place that is undoubtedly more biodiverse than it was as a cattle ranch, and possibly more biodiverse than it was as a single stream surrounded by pinion/juniper.
i think ecology discourse could use a little less of the american virgin / whore thing and take a more sober, clear-eyed view of the values that we want to instill in the gardens that surround us, possibly including one called "balance."
― Nedlene Grendel as Basenji Holmo (map), Wednesday, 9 March 2022 18:40 (two years ago) link
I'd simply say that the pinion/juniper and stream from pre-ranching days was garden enough, but your point is taken.
What the rest of us are getting worked up about, obviously, is that there are any number of pests (both insect and plant) that are actively killing parts of native forest. There are hardly any Ash trees left near where I live, and every warm season there are swarms of the spotted lanternfly, which are absolutely disastrous for many plants and the animals that depend upon them. So many trees have died in the years since it first got to metro Philly.
peace, man, one way to fight the lanternfly is to PLANT MILKWEED. The lanternfly loves it and is attracted to it, but milkweed sap immobilizes and kills the lanternfly :-)
― we need outrage! we need dicks!! (the table is the table), Wednesday, 9 March 2022 19:08 (two years ago) link