RIP Kanye West

blaming the kardashians for what kanye became also absolves a lot of his own desires and motivations for linking up with kim and the clan in the first place. the kardashians didn’t “get to him,” he sought them out

He was an idiot way before the Kardashians too.

hey birdistheword - sorry I got heated and acted like a jerk

Most of these are the sort of narcissistic tirades he’s known for nowadays and they all happened before the Kardashians (maybe the last one not, they started dating early 2010’s iirc but I’m not researching the specific date)

https://theweek.com/articles/482620/12-kanye-west-outbursts-timeline?amp

The catalogue of idiocy goes way, way back. There were warning signs but I (speaking for myself) wanted to believe the man was essentially better than that.

Specifically: whatever he said about reading being stupid struck (and still strikes) me as dunderheaded. Regardless of rather of not that is said with personal sincerity, why say it, especially when you’re aware of how many people - and how many other African Americans, in particular - look up to you?

Come on you could tell on College Dropout that he was a self absorbed prick it’s just that the music was more fun

You could tell, yes - and there was stuff on that record that was super gross even back then.

But in 2004, he didn't have the power and influence on mass culture he has today, and the grossness was not out of line with a lot of what was happening in the genre. Yes, frogbs, it was fun and it was new. And we were younger.

Sorry if I'm coming across as antagonistic here. The continued popularity and veneration of this guy is something I think about too much, so I have strong feelings and opinions. But will pull back and just follow the thread.

Raymond, please keep posting.

jay has a couple classic albums and a good amount of classic songs, but he's been coasting on mediocrity for nearly two decades.

bird otm re: clownye's "ţřųmpness" - he definitely taught kanye everything he knows. i had to stop looking at stuff about this latest episode because it's starting to feel like a rickroll or something.

Kanye's mother dying kind of accelerated his spiral.

Granted he wasn't a saint prior but that tragedy really fucked him up. She was only 58

@upper mississippi sh@kedown, thanks man. FWIW, I totally get that my lack of enthusiasm for Jay-Z's entire body of work is a minority opinion. Beyond his massive popularity, he's got his share of critical support and IIRC has at least two comfortable spots in the upper echelons of Rolling Stone's last album poll. I don't want to get in any heated arguments about Jay-Z, but I'll listen to anyone making the case for him. It would be great to hear exactly what his biggest supporters hear in his best work and be tremendously grateful for that - I hope that happens someday.

I thought Noah's joke was hilarious, but a one-liner isn't going to hold up as a complete, much less nuanced, argument.

I feel like the complaints I personally heard about Kanye really started with Late Registration and ballooned even before Graduation came out - I remember right before that album came out in 2007 I was getting pushback from friends who weren't interested in seeing him because of all the baggage he had. My feeling then was that it hadn't compromised his music too much, that it was actually interesting and entertaining to see a gifted but egotistical jackass struggle with those lesser elements about himself. He also felt like a guy who was struggling to engage with the world despite himself.

I do agree with the theory that Kanye losing his mother was probably the beginning of the end, there's no denying how devastating that was. In retrospect, it did lead to a remarkable stage in his career. I still remember the shock of seeing him break down on the following tour whenever he tried to do "Hey Mama" or something in tribute to her. (I actually braced for the same thing to happen when he paid tribute at the Grammy's, but he had it together by then.) Then he had that break-up and 808's and it was shocking to see the guy in pieces like that. IIRC he'd go on talk shows looking depressed, with shades and less grooming...kind of like Joaquin Phoenix's fake breakdown but this seemed for real. That album's only gotten better with age because when are we ever going to see him that exposed and vulnerable again?

(to clarify, I meant 808's remains compelling in terms of the humility and perseverance through inner struggles, not for the sheer voyeurism)

bird, have you seen/heard jay’s mtv unplugged? that could be a way in

I definitely didn't give it a good listen - I rarely listen to anyone's Unplugged appearances. Reading it over, just the Roots alone sounds interesting so will give it a try.

you should just give Reasonable Doubt two or three focused playthroughs and if that doesn't get you, nothing else will.

co-sign on unplugged. one of his career highlights.

reasonable doubt easily one of the most classic of the mid-90s nyc classics.

I'm making short term goals, when the weather folds
Just put away the leathers and put ice on the gold
Chilly with enough bail money to free a big Willy
High stakes, I got more at stake than Philly
Shopping sprees, cop in three, deuce fever IS's fully loaded, ah yes

Bouncing in the Lex Luger, tires smoke like Buddha
50 G's to the crap shooter, n****s can't fade me
Chrome socks beaming, through my peripheral I see ya scheming
Stop dreamin', I leave ya body steaming
N*****s is fiending, what's the meaning
I'm leaning on any n*****s intervening with the sound of my money machinin'

My cup runneth over with hundreds
I'm one of the best n*****s that done it
Six digits and running

I'm another who never got the whole Jay Z thing. Couple great tracks and some good lines but on the whole I just find him mediocre and lacking charisma.

It's ok to be RONG

Jay-Z is from the generation right after I stopped actively listening to hip-hop. He's never done it for me.

There have been a lot of individual Jay Z tracks I've enjoyed, some all on the same album, but no albums of his I take out on any sort of regular basis. That includes Reasonable Doubt, that includes The Blueprint, just not really my thing. I'd have to look at a calendar or something, but I don't think the rap I was listening to at the time included any of the heavy hitters, as far as I can remember. Though I do remember really enjoying Unplugged, which was fun.

I am joining the chorus— I love Reasonable Doubt and a smattering of tracks here and there, but if we're talking NYC rappers from that period, I will always, always stan for Nas over Jay, any day of the week.

As for Kanye, I just don't pay attention to anything he does, tho I still think the picture of the Clipse with Kenny G backstage at one of his concerts is among the funniest images of musicians ever.

It was a musical “E”- Clipse!! Honored to share the stage with these talented guys! #SundayService pic.twitter.com/hbiH0ZcTKR

— Kenny G (@kennyg) October 28, 2019

There have been a lot of individual Jay Z tracks I've enjoyed, some all on the same album, but no albums of his I take out on any sort of regular basis. That includes Reasonable Doubt, that includes The Blueprint, just not really my thing. I'd have to look at a calendar or something, but I don't think the rap I was listening to at the time included any of the heavy hitters, as far as I can remember. Though I do remember really enjoying Unplugged, which was fun.

The first 'just buy the greatest hits' rapper.

S. Carter, ghostwriter
for the right price I even make your ilm posts tighter

The catalogue of idiocy goes way, way back.

"I'm like a fly Malcolm X / Buy any jeans necessary"

Nas' albums between 1996-2002 are far worse than Jay-z's, but the latter's don't exist. In the download era my students didn't think he existed before The Blueprint.

Nas' albums between 1996-2002 are far worse than Jay-z's, but the latter's don't exist. In the download era my students didn't think he existed before The Blueprint.

lol

Is Reasonable Doubt only on Tidal or something?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3grvCbdONk

sorry - http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLfia-qfabl5wfDDickRmdmTaSukaK8Y_r

My son is not a fan of most of the rap we're talking about. It bores him, even my beloved "Warning". But to be honest, a lof of old rap doesn't hold up for me - if I was gonna listem to hip-hop from 1996-2009 or whatever I'd probably want a long playlist, not albums. This genre evolves so fast. (There are exceptions that do hold up, of course.)

Kanye's "You always askin' for Buddha, you a Budapest" on the Playboi Carti album was an all time groaner

oh, I should say that Jay Z's Timbaland collabs are all pretty killer.

Yeezus was the last Kanye album I thought had some great stuff on it, and also includes one of my favorite quatrains in rap history.

Which quatrain, table?

this is everything I could ever want from hip hop

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1swlUtEkXZ0

But I gotta feed Tianna, man
So I move keys, you can call me the Piano Man
Rain, sleet, hail, snow, man
Slang dope, E, hydro, man

keep goin

the roc/state p era I would run through a brick wall for

So he is just publicly harassing his ex wife at this point

all the rap dilettantes coming out against jay, i guess that’s what happens when you have a 25 year career and all the best music is in the first third

he has an Aerosmith problem where he got to be much bigger in pop culture later so some people are talking about Rocks and Toys in the Attic and some people are talking about Pump and Get a Grip

So in this analogy, Kanye West is Alicia Silverstone?

100% of Tru heads love Jay Z, it's written in the oracle

we still hustle till the sun come up