Floating Points and Pharoah Sanders and London Symphony Orchestra - Promises (2021)

That makes sense!

You know what else is an enchanting 7-note Dorian motif?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krDxhnaKD7Q

otm

lol

fwiw I liked this record at first but ultimately find it unsatisfying. It sounds really nice, I just wish it went a little further than it does.

unperson otm back in March 2021:

I do think Sanders has been part of some projects where he's just been a punched-in element; a couple of his albums with Bill Laswell have that feel. But here he's absolutely the centerpiece. I really like his vocal bits as much as his horn playing.

I think it's getting critical raves because a lot of critics these days fall over for music that won't wake the baby. But this thing really is quite beautiful at times, and the production and mixing are phenomenal. As a headphone album, it's fantastic.

― but also fuck you (unperson)

lol @ "The Lick", someone should edit Promises to rearrange the motif into "The Lick"

the animus towards this album is really bizarre to me. at worst it's a pleasant soundbath but I think it's more than that.

but for fuck's sake even if it's not your thing, let's be glad a jazz legend is not only still above ground, but still playing and trying new things.

We can be glad about that and also express (pretty politely afaict) critical opinions about what is the most acclaimed album of 2021 according to this list: http://www.acclaimedmusic.net/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=10765 .

And it IS my thing. Ambient production + modern string arrangement + modal improv = tell me where to sign, so it is frustrating and disappointing when the heavily praised result just seems half-baked imo.

yeah totally but there's a weird venhemence (not talking about you) that I see here, Twitter and other places

I guess I don't care anymore at all about what's overpraised though, why bother?

otm

the animus towards this album is really bizarre to me.

Not bizarre to me at all. The reason critical discourse feels like a pendulum is because it is exactly that, the backlash will always match the hype, it's the law of conservation of energy etc. Feels like I witness it on every thread here. Like watching the tides.

i feel like my criticism was pretty mild!!

For me it's just curious to think of this album as divisive. We probably all could benefit from some nuance between "half-baked" and "unspeakably gorgeous mysterious beauty of the Dorian mode". "Kind of sucks, it has no soul" sounds pretty dismissive though. I guess we will see all our contradictions resolve in perfect Hegelian-Marxist way with its placement in the Top 77 and interpret from there.

Hey, I gave more reasons why I felt it was half-baked. Fwiw, I have seen it on hardly any specialized jazz or classical lists (one that I know of).

I haven't even heard this yet

I'm one of the grumpy jazzers who doesn't like the record. It's beautifully recorded and expensive sounding, but feels inert due to the lack of interaction between the electronics, orchestra and soloist. Sanders comes out with some nice lines, but he doesn't have much to work with. Doesn't really go anywhere. String writing just sounds like a chocolate box pastiche of Alice Coltrane, with none of her intense beauty and strangeness.

My main beef has been with the marketing and the gushing praise. Particularly in the UK, where it seems like it was tailor made for the 6Music/Gilles Peterson/ageing clubber demographic. Floating Points has always been mediocre private school white man electronica - like his buddy Kieran Hebden it's all about diluting and polishing underground sounds for a middlebrow market. I'm also quite uncomfortable with the fetishisation of 50 yo spiritual jazz by collectors and DJs, particularly when there's little engagement with contemporary currents in jazz and improvised music, and Promises seems a product of that discourse. I think it came out of the same pot of funding that saw LCO work with Moor Mother, which hasn't been issued as a record yet, but is a much more interesting and challenging listen.

I'm guessing the forthcoming Alabaster De Plume album on International Anthem will be this year's Promises. Praised in certain quarters, but hated in others haha! To get my tuppence in, I find his wide-eyed crusty vibe really precious and the music is derivative and basic. While I find Promises pleasant but dull, Gold actively annoys me.

Professor Grumpy otm!

I was surprised how much I enjoyed how it doesn't go anywhere. And then i liked the Sinephro record even more. Am not a jazzer. Just dabble in jazz and ambient. Two great tastes that taste great together.

Thread reminds me of the time I was mad at lo fi study beats. They have their place.

damn, Stew's post is so terrible I think I'll give this record another chance today

Save us Moka!

imago at 6:52 9 Feb 22

I haven't even heard this yet

please don't


Stew's post is exactly what I'm talking about, like it's all about this perception that it's overpraised or intended for some bougie boogeyman middlebrow dickhickhead audience that probably in reality doesn't even exist and I think anyone who thinks Pharoah Sanders sat around thinking about the "6Music" audience (whatever the fuck that is) should get their head examined.

Also who cares if it's overpraised? why do you care?

Fwiw, I have seen it on hardly any specialized jazz or classical lists (one that I know of).

― The sensual shock (Sund4r), Wednesday, February 9, 2022 6:44 AM (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink

good thing these genres aren't full of pretentious gatekeepers who can't stand when something breaks out of their beloved little elitist fiefdom or has the audacity to engage musicians who aren't "real musicians" like floating points

what does Stanley Crouch think of this?

it's fine if you like this album, I was just sincerely disappointed when I heard it - I thought it would be better than it is.

"This is the kind of thing My Enemies In The Class War would like" is always the funniest angle a music critic can take.

Lol @ Floating Points with Pharoah Sanders and the London Symphony Orchestra featuring cover art by Julie Mehretu being an "anti-elitist" record.

I only listened to this album once and wasn’t a fan, even as a moderately big Pharoah fan…felt like the token jazz pick for people who don’t like jazz, a la Kamasi Washington a few years back. Guess I should play it again so I can feel more confident in my stance but first impression was they conjured up one specific sound and then wrote music around it that doesn’t really do anything particularly interesting.

Ok, I'm fully on team "why is *this* record a lightning rod for bad opinions?" now

I'm also quite uncomfortable with the fetishisation of 50 yo spiritual jazz by collectors and DJs, particularly when there's little engagement with contemporary currents in jazz and improvised music, and Promises seems a product of that discourse.

As pointed out several times in this thread over the last year, the fact that this was Pharoah's project & he sought out Floating Points, not the other way around, puts the lie to this angle. The people whose first instinct is to accuse Floating Points of "fetishizing" the poor helpless old spiritual jazz man are doing exactly what theyre complaining about.

FWIW the only reason I really think and talk about why I don't like this record is that I thought I was going to like it a lot and really wanted to like it.

Yeah, basically. The idea of this project + the praise for it set up high expectations.

i'm surprised how many strawmen / personal attacks are being brought up here — "jazz for people who don't like jazz," "beloved little elitist fiefdom" — you can dig the music or not, you don't have to conjure up a demographic to blame for it

The sensation of being gaslit by hype can be extremely hard to factor out of one's response to music so I have sympathy with those pouring extra salt on this given how it's been presented

yeah no shit louis

Lol @ Floating Points with Pharoah Sanders and the London Symphony Orchestra featuring cover art by Julie Mehretu being an "anti-elitist" record.

― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Wednesday, February 9, 2022 8:14 AM (thirty minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

i didn't say it was anti-elitist, there are different kinds of elitists and you know the kind i was referring to

also it's not a strawman when stew and zacata are literally doing that IN THIS THREAD

otm lol I misread crut's post because I thought he was complaining about the strawmen in Stew's and zacata's posts

very much including myself here, but there I can't think of anyone on this borad who I find particularly persuasive or insightful when writing about music negatively. or maybe I just trust my own taste more than I used to

"This Third Stream orchestral jazz fusion record didn't get the same acclaim from jazz and classical critics that it did from pop critics only because the former are all pretentious gatekeepers" does seem like a strawman to me.

I'm just glad that, with this album, jazz as a genre has finally reached maturity, one might call it the "Sgt. Pepper's of jazz"

i know we're talking about pharoah sanders and jazz but as a side point i never really connected with what floating points is doing. keiren hebden is a demonstrably interesting artist though, and lumping them together is lazy. i don't have an opinion on this record.

I don't think there are many jazz "gatekeepers" left anymore, it's pretty standard in the jazz world that all kinds of crossovers are the norm.

tbf stew & zacata are each specifically saying in so many words that one of the main reasons they dont like because of the people they imagine like it: "I only listened to this album once... felt like the token jazz pick for people who don’t like jazz", "my main beef has been with the marketing and the gushing praise"... i'm trying to think of a more otm definition of 'gatekeeping' than that

"Stew's post is exactly what I'm talking about, like it's all about this perception that it's overpraised or intended for some bougie boogeyman middlebrow dickhickhead audience that probably in reality doesn't even exist and I think anyone who thinks Pharoah Sanders sat around thinking about the "6Music" audience (whatever the fuck that is) should get their head examined.

Also who cares if it's overpraised? why do you care?"

Well, I care that it got way more coverage than any number of far better jazz records that came out last year. Same as it ever was you might say, but it's a shame nonetheless.

I'm aware it was Pharoah's project and I'm not try to deny his agency. He's made some other mediocre records, so be it.

I don't think PS sat around thinking about a particular audience, but Luaka Bop's marketing department certainly did! Which is fine, it's their job. And obviously one shouldn't over-generalise, but it's no secret that BBC 6Music is intended for a particular demographic.

I wasn't accusing FP directly of fetishisation, just making an observation about a tendency within collector/DJ/reissue culture to overpraise rare records. And by extension certain artists who sprinkle a superficial bit of spiritual jazz on their not-particularly-interesting music to give it a bit of authenticity.

"good thing these genres aren't full of pretentious gatekeepers who can't stand when something breaks out of their beloved little elitist fiefdom or has the audacity to engage musicians who aren't "real musicians" like floating points"

Whole lot of projection going on there! I'd never accuse an electronic artist of not being a "real musician". I just have no time for middlebrow coffee table guff. Furthermore, I don't think anyone who's seen my work could accuse me of elitism or wanting to keep jazz a secret.

FWIW I really like some of the Kieran Hebden/Steve Reid material, as far as "middlebrow" electronic artists collabing with older jazz dudes.

I'm not imaging anything - I've seen the comments made by real people! Some of whom are close friends. I can get why people like it. But I also understand how it's been marketed.

"I Love Marketing"

xp
what is your work? genuine q, I have no idea what you do / who you are

I'm forgetting my full name isn't in the handle. Write for The Wire, Bandcamp, We Jazz among other things.

I have been perhaps a bit vociferous in my posts, but when it comes down to it, the real reason for my bad feelings is that I *like* Floating Points and I *LOVE* Pharaoh Sanders, yet I am consistently underwhelmed by this record. The praise for it only makes me feel weirder toward it, especially because it makes me feel the need to justify my opinion... which I don't need to do!