Depression and what it's really like

i wrote (and deleted before posting) something earlier that touches on both of the last two posts, but i realize that absolutely no one wants to hear about my lack of a relationship with god, jesus, or a deity, and that no one cares how fucked up white evangelicals are and what they do to children's minds. but since i'm in a depression thread, FUCK IT -

halfway - that 100% resonates with me because until i renounced god, i believed god was watching me and that others might be watching me. of course i was a character with a narrative, i grew up being told that i was smart and would be able to accomplish whatever i wanted and that god was watching me and guiding me. i realize that doesn't connect with many other people's experiences, at all. but i have to believe that there is something to that, christian god but long before that of course, the idea that heavenly bodies or figures are watching, that someone at all is watching.

jon - the post i was writing before was more related to the thought of what comes after that, what comes after the realization that no god is watching. the realization is, pretty much no one else is watching or paying attention to you, either. that person who was a complete dick on Friday? they didn't think about you all afterward, probably, and even if they did, they probably thought of what you did and got it COMPLETELY wrong because they would have warped whatever happened into their own sense of personal narrative. that would suck, but it's comforting that it's so much more likely that they didn't think of you at all, afterward. in some ways it's horrifying that no one is paying attention, in other ways that can be freeing

of course, i say this while constantly worrying what everyone thinks of me and trying and failing not to piss anyone off. "i know what i should do, i just can't do it!" full circle.

"but i'm trying my best", full circle.

these cycles of self-hatred will always be there. the only thing that matters is that you keep going and keep trying your best, and forgive yourself for all the times you will inevitably fuck up

yeah! like Karl's christian god is the same superego /omniscient narrator / imaginary audience that judges us and finds us lacking or ridiculous or pathetic

I am more and more convinced that my self-hate voice is my dad

No blame really but there he is, reminding me I'm not good enough

Xps to Jon:
I’m not sure if what you’re dealing with quite fits but I’d suggest loooking into rejection-sensitivite dysphoria

xp - mine is this sociopathic dude i dated in college

I am more and more convinced that my self-hate voice is my dad

No blame really but there he is, reminding me I'm not good enough

i have this bias, brain habit, presumption or whatever (another spicy artifact of my childhood, wahey!) where whenever i see a powerful entity behaving abominably with no negative consequences (to itself at least), it reaffirms this sense of a fundamental cosmic injustice that is wrong but unfixable, and it makes me feel bad. and i keep seeing it everywhere, and it keeps making me feel bad. but not like michael jackson bad, where i’m cool and a great dancer, just the kind of bad where i want to go curl up in a ball in the closet for a thousand years.

p.s. the futility and meaninglessness of every action i take is kind of making me loathe everything i have to do, in a sideshow bob v. rakes stylee

hell is other people and hell is also me, it’s hells all the way down

this has been the cat report. sorry it’s shit. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

(p.p.s. my dn is just an hilarious quote from a jerk on a trapper forum who was trying to express his disdain for coyotes but who, through the serendipity of autocorrect, inadvertently revealed his own desire for self-annihilation)

everyone has to try so hard to just be, thoughts with all of you

whenever i see a powerful entity behaving abominably with no negative consequences

haha, cat, as soon as i read this i knew it was going to be bad news. the whole evil actors with no accountability energy thing is very strong right now. i will say this, though, cat - you always keep a good sense of humor, or at least, you seem to. laugh to keep from crying, maybe, i know. but i think it's a good thing, something that comes in handy. that has been the zach response to the cat report

Hugs and love to everyone. It’s been a long, hard stretch.

Thanks all, it is appreciated. Sorry Karl, I read all your posts and thank you for sharing them, it helped.

oh, no worries at all, don't feel like you need to respond. glad it helped a little, though :)

the whole evil actors with no accountability energy thing is very strong right now

Tell me a fuckin bout it

What feels different about my current despair level is it used to be possible to “look over there” (especially at something outside my brain and personal zone of control) at something good or moving in a trajectory that is not abysmal or that seems infused with possibility… but now there is nothing like that. Everywhere I look inside and outside myself is precipitous decline, darkness and rampant monsters. The absence of any “look over there” factors is terrifying to me.

a dear friend of mine used to say, you’d have to be crazy to live in this world and not go crazy

i wish i knew how to help you, and everyone else in this thread. and also just everyone. fuck depression. i hope you find something wonderful to take your mind off things, Jon 💛

& thank you zach for your kindness. ur tape is still awesome 🐎🐎🐎🐎

It's been a really hard month for so many reasons, but perhaps one of the hardest ones is the slow dawning of the realization of the people who truly, unconditionally care about you is much, much, much smaller than you might think. People truly do not give a fuck.

Sorry to hear you're feeling that way.. January has been a tough month for me as well

i'm sorry to hear it, jon. does it have to do with family, friends?

i think one difficult part about being really depressed and down is the feeling of turning invisible. it might feel like your pain is the most obvious thing in the world and that other people are ignoring it -- it's especially hard when you suspect or know that they are just ignoring it. the word "boundaries" comes up more often than it used to, and sometimes it feels like other people have decided that for their own self-care and wellbeing, they've drawn a boundary and now you're outside of it. (i think boundaries are good and necessary, too. i see why people need to do it, and sometimes i think they're useful for a depressed person, too. not trying to be a boundary hater, just saying that when you feel yourself newly placed on the other side of one, especially when it seems unfair for whatever reason, it's an awful feeling)

anyway, things are always complicated, and you mentioned that there are so many reasons it's been a hard month. but try to be as good to yourself as you can, as patient and forgiving to yourself as you are to other people. hang in there.

xp

was typing that while you posted, Andy. and sorry to hear about your shitty January as well.

I'm sorry to hear that, hopefully things get better for you.

It's just been really hard to go through a really trying time and not have any of the people I thought were friends, who all have been aware of what's been happening, reach out to me at all. Not one single person has checked in with me. The final straw was seeing a notification pop up for a text from a friend this morning, only to open it and find that they were asking me to run some errands for them due to a conflict, without one mention of what's been going on for me.

I guess in one respect it's nice to know these things now, before I ever need real support. I only exist as far as I'm able to make their lives easier, beyond that I'm fucking valueless.

uuuuugh, that's the worst. them not checking in with you until they realize they need something from you. i'm sorry. in those situations it can be really hard to avoid being passive-aggressive. it's like, you want them to realize in some way that that you're still going through the fucking things and you still could really use their support!

Yeah, pretty much exactly that.

Except even during the ask, not even a simple "how are you?" was included. It was just the ask.

yeah. a few minutes ago i started typing something that turned into a long ass story, which...who cares about my story. but i'll just say that, in a very similar situation, it sucked to get a text which jumped straight to asking me to check his mail, implying that if i didn't do it his life would be simply unbearable

sometimes i'm amazed at close friends who haven't asked "how are you?" in like...10 years or something

anyway, it sucks. sucks to feel really alone, and then sucks to feel like the only way out is to reach out to people, and the people you have to reach out to are the ones who kind of let you down big time.

it's not easy to do, and it's something i really, really struggle with, but one thing that does help is to make new friends. you don't have to do a big fuck you to the existing ones, but it's nice to just meet someone new and get to know them, whether that's like a board game meetup or a softball team or, in my case, taking a painting workshop. it's nice to get a fresh start with someone, in many ways. with the few people i've met recently, i like the feeling of getting to try to be a _good friend_ to them, from the very beginning.

yeah, that seems solid advice, I just wish it were that easy. unfortunately, one of the things to come out of this challenging month is that the idea of free time to try any of those things is pretty much off the table for the foreseeable future.

i hear that. and yeah, making new friends on purpose is one of the most difficult things in the world, even if you have all the time in the world.

hope you can keep pushing through things, and that whatever is eating up all the time is something that can be managed. don't feel shy about reaching out here, just to vent.

I think a lot of the early 90's 'men's movement' (Iron John, Fire in the Belly, Bill Moyers, etc.) was kinda cheesy but there was something about it that addressed a perennial problem.. that men have a really hard time connecting with each other over problems and feelings. I feel blessed to have a pretty solid circle of buddies but most of talk is alcohol-based and forgotten the next morning

Yeah, that's true, it gets even harder as you get older.

you hear from people who are dealing with grief that they sense people are scared to broach the subject of their grief because it is uncomfortable or feels like it can be re-traumatizing when in reality the opposite is usually true... the absence of conversation about the grief is what feels alienating and traumatic. how could we *not* talk about my grief? it's all i'm thinking about. i think there is a similar dynamic at play when it comes to acknowledging someone else's depression and asking how it's all going, though in a sense it cuts even deeper than in the grief scenario because we're more likely to be talking about close friends who have intimate understandings of our personal lives as opposed to acquaintances or casual friends who may have heard secondhand of a life altering tragedy, death etc

i think for me i've found a certain comfort in understanding how few people really care about me at that level, and, if i'm being honest, how the same is true for me in the other direction. i know the 3 or so people who i feel like i can really rely on, or who have checked in on me in the past when i've really been going through it, or who i do the same to now. there is a power in that clarity to me. but conversely if one feels like the number of people who fit that bill are zero or one, i understand how it can really sting and leave you feeling helpless, or make you feel like you are burdening one person who must be tired of hearing about your shit.

circling back to the initial point about grief and what not, sometimes people actually need to be told, "hey the absence of conversation between us about how i'm doing mentally right now is bothering me. i need you as an outlet, i need you to check on me and ask me how i'm doing. it's not uncomfortable for me, in fact it's crucial that i'm able to talk about this stuff with people who are very close to me, and you're one of those people." maybe that person can't hold up their end of the bargain when explicitly asked to -- which in its own way is also clarifying if sad -- but it's entirely possible if not likely that the other person has never been in the position of needing someone in that way, and as such doesn't really understand the emotional importance of that level of friendship. maybe i'm projecting here but i think when left to their own devices, most ppl will come up with reasons -- often contorted -- to avoid saying something to someone that could make them feel uncomfortable, even when the absence of that thing brings in a new, different kind of discomfort.

That's a good post J0rdan, I think you are pretty right on about that, ime.

I don't think I could ever be the type of person to be that blunt wrt specifically asking others for help when I need it, somehow I just don't think of myself as "deserving" support (which I know is silly when I type it out, but it's a long running theme in my own therapy). On top of everything, I feel so guilty and am doing a healthy amount of beating myself up for even focusing on my own needs right now but, at the same time, I know when I need help and I don't want to further burden the others in immediate family who are dealing with their own grief. I don't expect it to be a kind of magic bullet to solve grief or anything, but it seems that a chance to talk through my fears, sadness and uncertainty with someone that I'm close with, but a little more removed from the direct impacts, might be a good outlet.

idk, I'm rambling, but essentially I feel like I'm drowning and I know I need to take care of myself and my own mental health in order to be the support others in my life need (especially now), and I had hoped I could lean on a few friends to help fill in the long hours and days between therapy sessions, but it's been really disheartening to realize that I might not have those circles of support to rely on when I need them more than I have in a long time.

i am going to pop in here to share some thoughts -- feel free to ignore me --
i have been going through a severe and v stressful family crisis w my parents and am only child. this experience would be extraordinarily challenging for anyone, but extra challenging because the only person going through it is me (my parents' experiene is separate from my own). i will spare you the details of the situation because they don't matter to my point and are distracting in their severity.

My point is that some of the people who i thought would be there for me (to keep in touch, to make time to talk with me instead of texting, basically consider being my supportive friend a priority at all) have not chosen to make that a priority. I don't think they have stopped caring about me; I do think that they have not prioritized our friendship. At first, when I kept expecting and hoping they would show up somehow, I was miserable and very very very sad.

Since then (along with lots of therapy for all of my situations) I have recognized that there are people who will make time for me, who do prioritize spending time with me and listening to me -- it's just not who I expected it to be. I thank those people profusely and reciprocate as well as I can because I have always valued friendship very highly (esp as only child).

Which is to say: despairing about who isn't there for you isn't going to make them there for you. If you can, you should tell them clearly "I need u rn pls" -- and if not, you need to look elsewhere. I can't tell you who or where, but lamenting a lack or an absence isn't going to help IME. You can vent about it but that can only go so far.

This is it -- thanks for allowing me to interject. This has been a v rough time and I am working on it (it = emotional regulation, staving off wigouts, remaining as calm and nonreactive as possible, and -- yes -- distancing myself from people and situations that I find draining or untenable/asserting boundaries.

Since then, I have learned to recognize who DOES make time for me, however sporadically, and I am extraordinarily grateful.

That's a really good post and well worth reading, and solid advice for sure. I think it's that tricky "look elsewhere" part that feels much easier said than done.

Being a little flip here, to try and force some humor, but it feels a little, "hey new person, I'm going through a really rough time right now and it would be great for you to jump on board while I'm at my less than best! sounds great, right?".

that's absurd and you know it -- but if you can't reach out to the people who you think are leaving you behind, you need to find your own path forward. no one can do that for you.

it's not easily said either -- you have no idea how much effort i have put into reaching out and allowing people get to know me, learning how to open up and ask for help.

if you keep shooting down the truth because it's difficult to achieve that doesn't make it less true!

I think this is part of why people still go to AA meeting years or even decades after their last drink... just to have someone to talk to, and to listen in return

great posts, LL and J0rdan.

on the point of telling people, directly, that you need them, i recently carried out an accidental natural experiment. i told two of my closest friends. one of them responded really well and our relationship is stronger now, we spend more time together, and he's also kind of opened up a bit with me and given me some chances to be a good friend and to be there for him. the other friend was much more distant. i realized during our conversation that i was still expecting him to be the friend that he was in high school, when we spent hours chatting on AIM almost every night. as j0rdan said, it was "clarifying if sad" to realize that he no longer wanted that kind of relationship with me. i'm still hanging around in the hopes that he'll be my friend again (i'm useful to him as a person who picks up his mail), but it's clarifying to know that things have changed and to stop expecting him to be there.

at the same time, jon you mentioned that you don't think you could be blunt about asking for help, and that seems really common, probably the norm, for most people. it's one thing to ask directly for help to someone who you've been open with in that way before; it's a different thing when that's not the kind of thing that ever comes up, or that it makes either you or them uncomfortable.

whoops multiple xps

Since then (along with lots of therapy for all of my situations) I have recognized that there are people who will make time for me, who do prioritize spending time with me and listening to me -- it's just not who I expected it to be.

i think this is really well said and important. if you had asked me at the beginning of my most depressive period who over the next 6-12 months would really be there for me, and then asked me to make a list at the end of that period of who actually *was* there for me, the lists would've had some overlap but would not have been exactly the same. and also not everyone who was there for me at that time is still my friend in that way or even at all... life can still get in the way. (i was single at the time so some of these friendships were something more complicated yada yada). but i found the experience of connecting w/ whoever reached out their hand to be eye opening and somehow freeing

When I've had depressive episodes, I've avoided discussing it with friends. I liked to keep those parts of my life separated. It's possible that my problems weren't so severe that I needed to discuss them, and on some level I realized my feelings didn't have any concrete existence that would be alleviated by conversation?

xp to J0rdan --
yeah i agree -- there was a little overlap between who i expected to show and who actually has but not much. i can't be upset with people for choosing to focus their lives on other things; not only does being upset at them not make them change their minds, it means I spend my time feeling upset. And that is not what I am after tbh. I don't think they have decided not to like me. But if I need people to keep me company or go for walks with me, I have been going with the people who say "sure, let's go next week" instead of the people I have to negotiate extensively to get a phone call with.

this is otm i found the experience of connecting w/ whoever reached out their hand to be eye opening and somehow freeing

xpost to LL, like I said I was being intentionally flip with that comment, I know that wasn't what you were saying but rather relaying what that sort of ask would feel like for me to make.

Lots of good comments here to keep in mind, I appreciate it. What's hard for me is that isn't a case of me waiting for the "right" person to reach out or shying away from people who I don't think will "get" what I'm going through, it's that no one is reaching out. The posts in response itt are the grand sum total of reaching out I've experienced. Which isn't to minimize or diminish any of you who have taken the time to post, I sincerely appreciate it.

To the point of reaching out myself, I did take a step with that yesterday - I texted a friend (who is married to a friend of my wife, whom I know has been thoroughly updated on everything that has been going on) who I've spent a lot of time with, gone to shows with, etc. with "hey, how are you doing? it's been a really rough month, hoping for things to lighten up soon, it's been hard and i hope we can hang out soon" and that has sat on read since yesterday afternoon. To the points made upthread, he may just genuinely not know how to respond or think of what to say, it's a possibility. At the same time, it's kind of shitty feeling to still see no response and doesn't exactly dismiss my (perhaps irrational) thoughts about how maybe I don't "deserve" support.

that's a good start - did you offer any options for hanging out? (would you have time for _____ next week?") _____ could be anything -- a walk a beer anything. it's always easier to open up when you're hanging/talking synchronously. i strongly dislike texting about my problems precisely bc of the asynchronous nature of it.

i would also recommend reading about this -- there are a lot of new books about adult friendships and why they are hard to maintain. most are written by women but i bet they have some good suggestions.

I did not, just mostly because the overlapping family crises have kind of put us in a position where it's really difficult to know our schedule for the next few weeks or months.

that's why you have to ask!!

this is the one i was trying to think of https://weshouldgettogether.com/books

"read a book" may sound pat -- i never thought i would be one of those people who read self-help or psychology books but it has been really useful to read about my now-identified various issues, esp in moments of extreme isolation, to read about other people's experiences and not feel so alone. i'm recommending that in all honesty.

i think that's probably all i have to say about this. i will go back to my regular programming and i wish you all the best.

i can't be upset with people for choosing to focus their lives on other things; not only does being upset at them not make them change their minds, it means I spend my time feeling upset. And that is not what I am after tbh. I don't think they have decided not to like me. But if I need people to keep me company or go for walks with me, I have been going with the people who say "sure, let's go next week" instead of the people I have to negotiate extensively to get a phone call with.

otm! Have I recently told you, LL, how much I value your otm-ness? I forget exactly what the context was ... but I just remember in the past week, thinking about some personal issue, and thinking, LL said something on ilx that was related to this a few years back and it was very otm and I should keep that in mind right now.

If one were to read all the way through this thread, one would know that I have regularly gone through really dark periods and have felt super isolated and rejected, etc. And the thing I would add to what LL said, is that the people will not necessarily be the same ones each time you need support. There were people who were there for me in 2009 who weren't there for me in 2011 and vice versa, and then there was the total collapse in 2018, and the dark times last summer ... it's ... a chronic illness.

Feeling pretty bleak lately, tbh. It's been a really rough year. Regarding my posts from January, I'd been really proud of myself for pushing through my discomfort and the inner voice telling me not to bother and tried reaching out to some folks and being v v diligent about trying to make plans and following up with people. Unfortunately, despite my best efforts and due to a conflation of events and bad timing, nothing much has really panned out. Add in work stress multiplying dramatically due to some personnel changes and the family crises mentioned earlier still manifesting in our lives in frustrating ways, I feel more underwater than ever.

Idk, I know this is probably the stupidest place for me to vent about this, but... whatever. Ultimately I just feel like each successive week is harder, busier and more emotionally taxing than the previous with no easing up in sight and I just don't know how long I can keep moving forward. I mean, obviously I am moving forward, but it feels many days like it's pure survival mode without any joy or enjoyment.

it is not the stupidest place by any means ... US Pol threads, album polls, the Barbie movie thread, post a controversial music opinion ... those would be stupid places.

it feels many days like it's pure survival mode without any joy or enjoyment.

yeah :( I know that feeling, or rather, I have recently been there. For me it's usually just a few months at a time, but I was recently talking to a friend (who is one of those people who rarely has time for me) and he was saying how he has felt that way for years.

Do you get weekends off? Or any kind of chunk of time that is "for you" and isn't either occupied with work or stressful family obligations?