Post a controversial music opinion

"a person who swindles by means of deception or fraud"

you guys have already conceded that she can't sing. and her claim to fame is being a "singer." is it a stretch to say that anyone who paid money for any of her records or shows —while conceding that singing isn't her strong suit— has been conned? i don't think so.

i'm not from around here, but i would think that being the target of a grifter isn't something that one should take lightly.

also, i deleted my instagram so i can't look at that without logging in. oh well, surely the grift continues without my attention.

i don't understand the grace jones thing, either. at least she worked with decent collaborators.

you guys have already conceded that she can't sing.

I don't believe they did.

maybe people like her songs either way

Hey opera peeps sing all their dialogue what’s up with that no one sings their Arby’s order y’all got played.

most pop stars are average to below average singers

i'm not from around here, but i would think that being the target of a grifter isn't something that one should take lightly.

lmao

i would think that being the target of a grifter isn't something that one should take lightly.

You're right. I've spoken to my barrister.

madonna falls flat for me mostly because she can't sing very well.

― Nedlene Grendel as Basenji Holmo (map), Monday, January 31, 2022 7:29 AM

madonna [is an] instance where the performance's power outweighs any technical insufficiency

― STOCK FIST-PUMPER BRAD (BradNelson), Monday, January 31, 2022 7:38 AM

and brad is a published music critic, so i mean????

fine if you like her songs, but it's like being a wwe wrestling fan: it's just a legitimized grift.

One of my favouritest musical performances in history is Madonna singing "Sooner Or Later" on the Oscars 1991

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bgNyaAz1jg

What I love about it is how close it toes the line on "Madonna, Exposed". She is trying to look like Marilyn and sing like Bernadette and have all the charm of Mae West all at the same time, and she has absolutely none of those people's natural talents, and here she is singing such a precarious Sondheim melody with all these "sexy" dance moves and she is utterly, utterly terrified. The first time I saw this performance, after she bites her finger, and you can see her hand trembling with fear, even as a kid I felt recognition, being on a stage, terrified that your shortcomings are gonna be exposed, and yet she pulls it off and I found myself rooting for her 100%

So I think she's a grifter, sure, and I don't think it's so much that she's "in on the grift" as much as she's "extremely afraid of having her talentless ass exposed and thus works extremely hard to deliver unsinkable singles and the best-possible performances" and I extremely respect that

i'm sorry but that's one of the worst things i've ever seen and the complete antithesis of what a good performance is.

it's like being a wwe wrestling fan: it's just a legitimized grift

Ha ha, I finally get you now. You're one of those assholes who believes in "authenticity" (hence your earlier "soul is better than rock" gambit).

but honestly, thanks for the post.

Good post, fgti.

xpost to fgti

The first time I saw this performance, after she bites her finger, and you can see her hand trembling with fear,

I noticed the trembling hand when I watched at the time too; coming as it did during Imperial Phase Madonna it was refreshing.

i feel like madonna getting singing lessons at a pretty advanced stage of her career is a tacit admission that "her claim to fame" isn't as a singer, but more as a performer and co-producer (ppl may argue with this designation but her ability to choose and develop songwriting relationships with collaborators is pretty much her greatest talent. she insisted on the flamenco drop in "deeper and deeper"!)

the "her claim to fame is being a singer and she can't sing" is a very bad argument imo that was once used against me in a discussion about taylor swift, who i'd also argue has a pretty distinct "claim to fame" that isn't "singer" but "storyteller"

I didn't say it was "good" I said it was "my favouritest" fwiw

I do agree with Patti LuPone when she said that Madonna ruins every films she's in! Also I always thought of Lady Gaga as cut-rate Madonna until Gaga turned to acting and then it was like "ohhhh well at this job you are WAY better than Madonna"

Would this discussion be different if she were not working in the specific pop context that she works in? (Synchronized backup dancers, Big Shows with lots of costume changes and stagecraft, etc.)

Like, what if she had roughly the same talent level but did so as an indie rocker in flannel with a distorted Jazzmaster. Or as a torch singer sitting on a piano. Or as a folkie in a dirndl with an acoustic guitar. Or as a DJ wearing a robot mask.

Is a certain level of universally acknowledged - and universally accepted - grift built into dance-pop? Of course it's an illusion, but so was grunge, looked at from a certain conceptual remove.

You're one of those assholes

― but also fuck you (unperson), Monday, January 31, 2022 9:09 AM

hey you know what's funny?

i never lob personal insults at internet strangers just because they don't like zapp and roger.

authentically,
an asshole (apparently)

you guys have already conceded that she can't sing. and her claim to fame is being a "singer." is it a stretch to say that anyone who paid money for any of her records or shows —while conceding that singing isn't her strong suit— has been conned? i don't think so.

I'm not even that much of a Madonna fan but idg this pov at all. I've never heard of anyone claiming she's some kind of vocal virtuoso like Mariah Carey or Whitney Houston.

Entertaining a discussion about Madonna in 2022 using terms and biases from 1988 certainly makes a case for ending the world soon.

and I'd argue "Live to Tell" boasts a great vocal performance, in part b/c she figured out her lower register projects a natural warmth and empathy.

I'm begging you all to stop saying grift ffs

now I know what it means!

I started liking Bowie a lot more when he learned to sing in the early 90s (and Madonna a lot less when she did the same)

Anyway, few things are more tiresome than dudes -- always dudes -- whose posture consists of playing the part of the man who can't be fooled, can't be bought, and who can't reminding the mugs and the suckers and the shmucks around him.

austin you seem like a sweet person which is why i'm going to tell you that a lot of times you get weirdly personally angry and hostile about odd topics and it's weird and the anger/hostility puts people off and seems to make you more frustrated and/or isolated.

*can't stop reminding

xpost

This controversial opinion and the discussion it provoked is very, very interesting.

now I know what it means!

― So who you gonna call? The martini police (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, January 31, 2022 12:19 PM (three minutes ago)

lol fair enough, I just seethe at the idea that people enjoying a piece of music can constitute being conned—who is being *exploited* here?

This whole convo also rests on some ideal version of "good" singing that I think is pretty wack

I'm begging you all to stop saying grift ffs

otm

rob otm

Music is probably one of the least grifty economic activities I can think of. This is a person who sells noises. When I want her noises I give her money. If I didn't want her noises, I wouldn't have given her any money. Very simple.

She also sold the experience of being in a room where she was performing. I didn't really see a whole lot of value in that experience, so I withheld my money and she just went ahead and performed anyway. Very simple. Not sure I see any problems here. There's no deception, no fraud in any of this. Pretty straightforward transactions.

"You deserve an award for the role that you play."

and I'd argue "Live to Tell" boasts a great vocal performance, in part b/c she figured out her lower register projects a natural warmth and empathy.

― So who you gonna call? The martini police (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, January 31, 2022 11:17 AM (ten minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

yeah Austin are you like Benjamin Buttoning with music opinions lately? I feel like you've hit 15

lol oops wrong C&P sorry alfred

xp Oh come on

Austin's controversial opinions and subsequent hostility are terrific

I hate the perennial post that goes like

You seem nice so I'll be honest
And I'm gonna speak for everyone here and say
In the most constructive way possible
That you suck at posting

What's wrong with "grift" though? I use the phrase "hipster grifter" fairly often with frequency and accuracy

i mean i think the kernel of truth here is that it takes a whole lot of social construction to make noises mean something and that pop stars are good at using every tool they have to make that meaning as compelling as possible for as many people as they can.

Alfred otm & it’s not an uncommon thing, grift is having its use-other-words-please moment but I decided ages ago that someone calling a piece of art fraudulent or its maker a fraud is useless most of the time & bespeaks a sadly defensive attitude, like everyone is so terrified of being taken in

You seem nice so I'll be honest
And I'm gonna speak for everyone here and say
In the most constructive way possible
That you suck at posting

William Carlos Williams?

most of my favorite singers are objectively bad, I like being conned.

map otm!!!! and lol Alfred

what kind of con is it when a "good" singer makes terrible music?

this is just to say
i have admired the suits
that were custom-made in London
please forgive me

ray of light = a holy grift

another music opinion that isn't really controversial at all but i don't love-love william orbit, tho 'ray of light' is good.

thx for the psychoanalysis, but there is very little anger in my posts. confidence ≠ anger.

sorry if my fucking shitty language makes it sound like i'm angry. that's just the goddamn way i talk, consarnit.

okay, that was too far. i apologize for resorting to nineteenth century profanity. completely out of line.

alfred, if the world is truly at its end at least we can both close our eyes one last time with the knowledge that we were happy doing the things that we did. next round's on me.

you guys are fun.

william orbit is both dated but still Largely Good imo, he will continue to be mined for influence

one final thought: i think it's cool that madonna liked to mock organized religion. grifters taking on the even bigger grifters is always a good show to watch.

and again: i'm sorry if my communication style is offputting. it's not intended that way whatsoever. i'm a very smart alec-y, smarmy person in general, but i post with a natural smile on my face 95% of the time. this is a discussion forum and you guys are genuinely a billion times more intelligent than i'll ever be. i really do enjoy reading ever word. thank you for indulging me.

(unless you're saying i'm an asshole for my music preferences. that's kinda lame, but i like john klemmer so maybe i deserve it.)

blowin' gold is cool

would you say that Madonna is an abuser for gaslighting us into liking her songs?