The Irish

maybe you just stop posting, dickhead!

suspect that was a U2 zing there calz

not that I'd expect it to have been made in eg a similar American civil rights context, for instance

exactly!

and take that shite to ilm

My apologies, that was a lazy and ill-considered stupid drive-by post, not helpful or necessary

not that I'd expect it to have been made in eg a similar American civil rights context, for instance

it still shocks me that a country where one of the top left-wing politicians consider Thatcher a good person and a victory for representation, is actually full of complete fucking idiots!

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60130486

Yuri filatov fish

Ireland's first line of defense against the Russians is something else! #Russia #moscow #YaBollix pic.twitter.com/sCElZuea2R

— Niall (@niall_staunton) January 27, 2022

POLL: Business Post/Red C
(Jan 21-26, MoE 3%)

Sinn Féin 33 (unchanged since Nov)
Fine Gael 21 (-1)
Fianna Fáil 15
Green Party 6 (+1)
Social Democrats 5
Labour 4
PBP-Solidarity 2
Aontú 2
Independents 11 https://t.co/Xb88kMTflI

— Gavan Reilly (@gavreilly) January 29, 2022

I'm just glad we got the Vax before SF get in I guess

Fuck that 2% for Aontu though. What is wrong with people?

I mean 2% tho

the beauty of not having only two sides is that you see the genuine crazy separate to those that will just cynically exploit em

Crying laughing at this

He also recalled how his mother, Catherine Finnegan – known as Jean – visited the UK and spent a night in a hotel where, she was told, the Queen had once stayed.

“She was so appalled that she slept on the floor all night, rather than risk sleeping on a bed that the Queen had slept on,” Pritchett wrote, adding she personally admired anyone who allowed their principles to take precedence over a comfortable bed.

man joe

we elected the wrong Biden!

His parents were Irish

I don't think they qualify as Irish even by American standards tbh. The "Bidens" were actually English, but no votes in that.

did you also know he was the first half English/half German person with an Irish sounding surname in his family to to go into higher education?

I don't even feel as Irish as Biden does despite my dad immigrating from Kerry and my mum from County Meath but this an American thing.

George fall into the sea challenge

Yes, Donbas is majority Russian-speaking. On the same grounds, England has a right to re-occupy the Irish Republic.

— George Monbiot (@GeorgeMonbiot) February 22, 2022

George LOLbiot

hes not wrong just a wee bit off right

do not

Presumably he's saying: the UK has no right to re-occupy the Republic of Ireland.

I agree with that.

The start of this thread was remarkably, unusually bad.

So then -- a bunch of Guinness-soaked louts or a flowering of native Celtic genius that makes the English look like a passel of Hooray Henrys and who wisely escaped the UK's clutches to help make America the brilliant place it is?

It’s a totally stupid point given that aiui:

- lots of people in Donbas consider themselves Russian proper and hold passports to that effect
- “the Irish republic”? Really, George? It’s out of touch at best and pejorative at worst.
- there’s six counties in the north east of the island that actually make a better argument for this but it doesn’t exactly place the UK in the best light to do so
- as an Irish citizen, seeing all kinds of cunts now get outraged about shooting protestors and the like given that the UK government is actively trying to row back on “Bloody Sunday was bad”? Indescribable
- why am I writing this in English, George?

You missed out calling the UK England.

lol right. Man’s a hack

The start of this thread was remarkably, unusually bad.

_So then -- a bunch of Guinness-soaked louts or a flowering of native Celtic genius that makes the English look like a passel of Hooray Henrys and who wisely escaped the UK's clutches to help make America the brilliant place it is?_

monbiot usually has his heart sort of in the right place but that is a crass (and crassly-phrased) comparison yes

A totally unrelated side note is that I spent some time in Dublin for the first time in eleven years a couple of weeks back. It was great, but it’s changed so much since I was last there and even longer when I lived there. I was really really impressed by the Luas, but Dublin bus has cut a load of bus routes and as someone who used the services constantly when I lived there, it was really noticeable. The airport bus service being cut is a total disgrace.

I also stayed in the Gresham which I did for 3 reasons a) I got a really good deal on a night there b) central af, meaning I could stagger out of bed the next day and walk around a bit before staggering for the train home c) it tickled me a bit bc I remembered writing essays in Irish as a child where I said I stayed there. Hotel was pretty nice, would do again.

It was lovely to see the Connolly statue, which I posted about in another thread. It’s neglected, though, which is a shame and apt considering his political successors, for example:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DnVCl8PX4AABpkr?format=jpg

The Gresham is where the Conroys stay the night in the story 'The Dead', rather than going back home in the snow, and thus where Gretta C tells Gabriel C about Michael Furey.

So it is. Ty pinefox. There is a relevant picture here but I can’t post it itt.

How did you come to be interested in Irish literature anyway?

having a wilfully distorted understanding of everywhere else in the world is a defining feature of UK liberalism. Even with supposedly nominally left leaning libs like Monbiot. And he's a cunt!

it goes beyond a clumsy ill considered analogy, he's just showing his real colours

lol my point on monbiot, of whom i know nothing and care not to know any more, is as pinefox says and further again to pretty much your own point about "golly you could almost follow that back and come to some conclusions about the non-republic part"

Gyac: the short and fairly predictable answer is simply that I read Ulysses, around the time I first visited Ireland, and everything followed from the immense enthusiasm and fascination of this experience (the literary experience, but the geographical one was good and relevant too).

I found myself thinking today about a United Ireland and to cut a long story short I mainly wondered what would happen to Unionism when it no longer had a Union to demand, but still had demographic power in the new Ireland.

The obvious answer is: a reassertion of Ulster as an identity (without 'British'), Northernness becoming a cultural element in the ROI in a new way, and Belfast as a power base to rival Dublin - which presumably no Dublin politician wants, which you would think make a Dublin politician now wary about the whole idea of reunification. (This will all have been said before; well especially the last part.)

The slightly less obvious thing that came to me is: there would be an alliance between the Conservatism of the DUP and UUP and eg: Fine Gael - Ulster and Southern forms of 'conservatism' would find a lot of common ground, if only for strategic reasons. Maybe Fianna Fail would then reposition as the opposition to this bloc?

The SDLP would presumably join with southern Labour, in a not very effective way (maybe in a coalition with FF?). But the power of Sinn Féin, by now, in the North would join the power it now has in the south and, I guess, compound it, and maybe there would be an all-Ireland plurality or majority for SF, in the short term - which I guess would be a kind of 'left populism' especially once the border question no longer existed?

[first sentence should I think say: a Union to *defend*]

I haven’t thought much about any of the issues you lay out to the point of having coherent replies to them and I will do so and will reply in full when I do (lucky you, having to read that avalanche of shit!)

Something that has been on my mind a lot ito reunification is the issue of integrating Irish above the border with those below it. It might seem like a done deal and not worth considering, but there’s a lot of issues. For one thing, Dublin my whole life and certainly most of my parents’, has been actively distanced from the Irish in the north and their suffering. Although they are our citizens, they are not “us”. There are a number of reasons why this position is taken, not least it’s a responsibility that is…tricky…for Dublin when we can’t even care for people below the border.

I was thinking about the shift in my views on this in my lifetime. It goes along with a move from being an unconsidered melt to considering things more fully (no shit), and basically my views have gone from “oh that’s all happened in the past/nothing to do with us” to “they are our citizens. We have a duty to them!” and obviously I feel a lot of shame about having held the former view. I don’t think it’s coincidental that a lot of people my age and younger (mainly the latter) are more pro-reunification, especially with them skewing more left at a cohort. Even basic stuff like social media can be hugely illuminating if you grew up far from the border and have no idea of what life was like. I was listening to a Twitter space a few weeks back operated by Nordies who were speaking about their hurt due to Irish in the south basically being ignorant of/dismissing their Irishness and in some cases even laughing at them. A young man was saying about his family crossing the border due to the 12th and overhearing a b&b owner referring to the family as “the black Irish”; he said this casual dismissal stuck with him as, after all, his parents had taken him south of the border out of concerns for their safety on the 12th.

I also have come to befriend Nordies irl and hearing all this makes me feel ashamed of my own ignorance, and they have a point when they complain about us being (rightly) supportive of Palestine but outright ignorant of and dismissive of the situation faced by our own people on the same island.

I’ve pretty much just typed this all out without stopping to read it back so sorry if incoherent or claggy reading. It’s interesting to talk about these things but it comes with a lot of discomfort due to personal complacency and the disregard shown by us as a nation IMO.

all that, yes

also my habitual wariness of the full side of any story coming from just one perspective too tho, and carving out some level of justifiable position of none of any of us being born into a very idea ireland with very clear and agreed lines of history or the correct course of action to take

94 was the start of a lot of new perspectives and def agree that social media has led to another jump in perspective, and further again sf being all things to all men (for good and for ill) in the south means they will be the major political force on the island in our lifetimes (and i agree with pf that the nature of them rising on an professional-opposition basis means that this phase may well be shortlived depending on how quickly their anti-govt (any govt) vote becomes disillusioned.

FG/FF wont survive as a joint force in opposition i dont think, covid prob the best thing that could have happened to that pairing. they wont solve housing before the next GE so it will really be a question of will they do enough to swing back enough votes allied with what SF's ceiling actually is

ive moved away somewhat from the actual question, unity and what it means. agreed it means an ulster identity within an all-island nation, think that isnt that far off as is, think (informed by a good discussion about it all with a soft-nationalist catholic fella in his fifties at the weekend) that we in the south still- whether we go one way or the other about it- fetishize what it was or is to be a northern catholic, he spoke well and with great conviction about it being a part of his history, identity, experience but by far the larger part was normal ulster rural living which was no more different to what i recognise as my connacht rearing (minus the extraordinary personal parts) was to a youngfella raised strangely in farflung kerry

after unity, fg will be pulled a few ways but towards an ever bluer all island identity certainly seems likely, ff might still exist and pull quite a bit of the above softer northern nationalist vote, sf will have to govern and see how that actually goes for them but hey we've tolerated enough from the other lots til now, setting aside my misgivings as to what their actual attitude is towards the structures of the 26 county state whether they can consolidate and achieve in what youd presume would still have to be some form of coalition is an interesting question in itself

I am also thinking of the influence of legacy media and journalists towards the Republican movement and how much they have been involved in shoring up the attitude that I mention above. The Sunday Independent fired Eoghan Harris after it emerged that he had run an alt account on Twitter that was posting relentlessly attacking young republicans and nationalists and stuff like this:

So here’s the burner account for @Independent_ie columnist Eoghan Harris.
Loathes Sinn Féin, constant attacks SocDems, defends himself from the burner (big LOL at that).
If this is just one political columnist, how many others have burners since look how many are tagged by him? pic.twitter.com/2AEAiHEbKn

— Seán O’Raghallaigh 🇮🇪🇻🇳🇵🇸 (@RaghallaighJ) May 6, 2021

This account sent me sexualised messages about whether Mary Lou McDonald “turned me on”, the size of my arse and called me a terrorist from the month I started at the Examiner. Since then, I’ve had to go to counselling and the guards. https://t.co/aueLtHkg80

— aoife moore. (@aoifegracemoore) May 6, 2021

now apologies for however that all came out tbh xp

that whole thing was mental ofc

sf otoh, imo above all parties at it (and they are to various degrees) have little standing to complain about burner accounts etc carrying out attacks and othery fuckery online

i will have to start taking more care to separate sf from the entirety of the nationalist side, the youth anti-govt side, thats a personal item i know needs working on (look twas acceptable shorthand in my formative years in my defence) because i am fully behind clearing the irish political decks and a unified ireland- like a lot of my generation it will take a lot of convincing that SF are anything like an ideal vehicle for it, regardless of the many faces they present in order to sell that

Also, and sorry for the text walls, but this is very interesting to think about.

SF are obviously currently pulling in a lot of the nominal left vote since SPBP are too small/radical (subs pls check???) to appeal to voters in the bog (such as my parents lol). I think yeah the anti-establishment has a huge role in the SF polling and the continued role of the housing crisis. It’s pretty bad when you’ve got emigrants like myself actively put off returning home because of the difficulty in finding some place to live, yeah?

SF will be in government in my lifetime, to huge resistance and hysteria on this side of the Irish Sea, and good luck to them. I think they are canny enough in the South, we spoke before about how Mary Lou is pretty adept and I’d be interested to see how she fares as Taoiseach.

I take your point about the soft nationalist vote above the border however my view from talking to younger Nordies (and even the shift in my own views) is that Brexit has pushed a lot of people away from this position because the DUP and a vocal minority of the unionist vote have been pretty open about their views and it’s shocked a lot of people. The fact that the DUP are losing ground on their right to the TUV is not unnoticed either. I mean, fuck, I remember the DUP sweeping the assembly elections in 2003(?) and that was a shock then because they were the extremist party!

I think this developing shift in the unionist vote is 100% stoked by their realisation that the writing is on the wall, both in terms of political direction and the demographics. There’s a soft unionist vote as much as there is a soft Republican one, and they’re the people we need to focus on. The hardliners will never be happy.

Also, the census results are going to stir up a lot of shit.

sf otoh, imo above all parties at it (and they are to various degrees) have little standing to complain about burner accounts etc carrying out attacks and othery fuckery online

yeah that's very true about the myth of soft unionism somewhat having its veil whipped away and will ofc have a reaction with that presumed "im actually not mad on SF but ..." northern vote

its an extraordinarily interesting time

i think mary lou has massive potential as a pragmatic taoiseach and a stable term for a majority SF who were able to focus on the issues of the day would be a reassuring thing for even diehard ABSF cohorts

which i might well be in tbh but at least im open to them being better than FG dripfeeding subsistence at market prices to the bare minimum of voters outside the D2 wealth engines and lord help us shoot me first rather than i ever wish for FG back

labour and the SD's ofc have essentially retired from politics afaict, and idk if it makes me a hibernian melt or not to wish that they were a viable alternative to even influence a sf majority govt but notwithstanding strange bedfellows i think that that strand of leftism has a more virulent hatred of sf end than any grouping bar the fg bruton wing, for whom distaste is ofc worse than murderous rage

xp yeah absolutely granted as i say thats a thing i know ive to improve my own scattergun thoughts on