Frank Zappa: Classic or Dud?

Zappa in interviews rarely seemed angry, imo, that's part of the smugness
I tend to agree, but can you elaborate?

He should have punched Letterman obv.

he shd have got the World's Most Dangerous Band to premiere his work

Perhaps JiC is saying that the smugness is a form of thinly repressed anger, which could be adressed in many ways without resorting to fisticuffs.

Zappa conceded that they *were* good and got about 80% there (or whatever number it was). Which is ... still pretty backhanded!

― Josh in Chicago, Thursday, 27 January 2022 bookmarkflaglink

Interesting how you are getting me to defend a guy I hate.

He brings out the best in us.

xpost Well, I got the sense (and again, just imo; I'm no expert/fan, but I've seen a lot of his interviews) that Zappa always behaved not just like he was smarter/better than everyone else, but that it was just barely within his powers of patience to put up with whatever dumb question he was being asked. Ask him about something familiar, like Motown or Beethoven, and it's almost beneath him to speak about it, because neither is up to his vague (unattainable?) standard/ideal. But there's an undercurrent of frustration/insecurity in his disdain, because he knows he's incapable of a pop run like Motown, or something like Beethoven, so better to just dismiss it as beneath him. Too boring, too primitive, too popular or whatever. And then if his decades of alternatives themselves often fall short, too, better to blame it on the fickle demands of music industry, or his musicians, or the inability of audiences to truly understand the music in his head. So he kind of attains this sort of zen arrogance, not angry, just ... impatiently patient. Smug. Perpetually waiting for people to catch up but intentionally pulling just out of reach.

I don't like Sparks that much, but my favorite parts of that doc came whenever Ron broke character and smiled or something. I never doubted that band (or, say, another Zappy-y band, 10cc) was having fun, whereas Zappa, it's all about the work, because if you're always working and complaining about work then people assume it's *hard* work, and if it's hard and you're doing so much of it, then you must be really good at it. Not like those pop acts, just doing it for fun.

Anyway. Did Zappa have an opinion on his fly-shit-on-paper precursor Carl Stalling?

that's the impression I get from when he hosted SNL too, just this constant atmosphere of "you guys don't understand humor like I do" which led to him half-assing everything like a 13-year old who thinks he's too cool for the school play

the thing with Sparks is there is real joy in that music which is something that rarely comes through with Zappa. not coincidentally the worst Sparks albums are the ones where they don't really seem to be having any fun

Zappa in interviews rarely seemed angry, imo

I actually don't recall ever hearing the guy even raise his voice

Did he ever weigh in on Lennon's Plastic Ono Band?

Ascension are a lot better at the concept of Shutting up and Playing though Zappa is going for something slightly different.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DOgDxKtshDY

I mean Zappa's so clearly brimming with contained anger, do you guys really think the only form that anger takes is yelling?

Of course not.

I just think Letterman would have been better with fistfights.

A Qobuz ad showed up in my Instagram feed for the first time (good time for it); but for some reason, this was the face/tune they chose to feature:

https://i.imgur.com/Y5SIdTn_d.webp?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium

it's snowing across much of america, public service announcement

DO U SEE?

Joe Rogan sez eating Yellow Snow immunizes you against Covid.

#onethread

When you’ve loved and lost as Frank has

Only three people have ever silenced the Maracanã: the Pope, Frank Zappa and me.

After all the recent “Zappa is an asshole” posts I’ve been listening to a ton of FZ, trying to reconnect with what attracted me to his music in the first place, and discover which parts are still relevant to me.

I first heard him via a friend’s older brother’s 60s LPs, and while the “smut” and the weirdness were probably initial draws for a pre-teen, so were the odd melodies of “Take Your Clothes Off” and “Let’s Make the Water Turn Black” and “Dog Breath.” I don’t return to the earliest records often, but still appreciate their diverse influences and groundbreaking sound collages when I do.

The Flo & Eddie years are difficult for me. I certainly spent enough time listening to “Billy the Mountain” and watching midnight showings of 200 Motels but the comedy and the vulgarity overshadow the music here, and I’m rather embarrassed that a record containing “Magdalena” is still on my shelf.

It’s great that the vulgar comedy completely disappears for Waka/Jawaka and The Grand Wazoo and I like those records fine, but I don’t listen to the instrumental records much, either jazz or classical, including Hot Rats.

I’ve determined it’s the mid-70s band that still holds the most appeal and interest for me. The humor is still there, although somewhat less sexual and more absurdist. With the addition of George Duke and Chester Thompson (and sometimes Jean Luc Ponty) they become a ridiculously well-rehearsed jazz fusion band, with stop-on-a-dime tempo changes and the always-incredible Ruth Underwood layering the “cartoon music” on top. “Echidna’s Arf” and “Inca Roads” are still amazing pieces of music to me, and I love when this band reworks an oldie like “King Kong.”

I somehow had never seen The Roxy Movie until this past weekend, and it’s amazing, a great antidote for all the “angry Zappa” typecasting. Watching his hand-movements conducting, or his little dance moves, or his scampering over to play percussion, he seemed genuinely happy at that point.

After that it’s rapidly diminishing returns. I didn’t like most of Sheik Yerbouti or the Joe’s Garage trilogy, and heard only bits and pieces after that. I may investigate some more 80s records as part of my research, but I don’t hold high hopes.

Mid 70s bootlegs though, bring 'em on!

i had the opposite response to The Roxy movie... one of my fav records ever and I had it pictured in my head how it looked etc. once I saw the live footage of Bebop Tango and saw Frank just like tossing a woman around the stage with such distain it turned me off! he was happy, and that band cooked, sure, but he still hated woman and Napoleon Brock turned out to be a creep so that is a deterrent too.

Agreed, "Bebop Tango" is the worst, half an hour of audience participation bullshit which could have been excised for some of the songs that made the box set but not the movie.

have you heard the roxy sessions box? thats where all the gold is.

Haven't bought it but I've heard a bunch of it, yes. Actually today I was listening to a bootleg recorded in my hometown, slightly after the Helsinki shows on You Can't Do That... Vol. 2. Interesting to hear the songs without the overdubs and embellishments that went onto Roxy & Elsewhere. Lots of different arrangements and ad libs, lots of fun.

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=zappa+st+paul+1974

one thing that came to mind listening to Zappa's output from the Flo & Eddie period onward is that he blew a lot of his talent doing South Park-level shit; both the endless toilet humor and the whole "fuck you, if you don't like this then the next one's gonna be even worse" attitude. not to mention always posturing himself as the smartest guy in the room. trouble is he's much less funny than Parker & Stone and when he makes me laugh it's almost by accident. now when I hear something like "Uncle Fucker" I think "ahh, this is what Frank was trying to do"

(obviously this doesn't apply to everything he did from 1970 on but that general attitude is all over the place on those records)

One thing that actually did make me laugh in that St. Paul bootleg is they changed the chorus of "Oh No" from "I just can't believe you are such a fool" to "I just can't believe you go arf arf arf," which is utterly silly and stupid, but it made me lol.

could you imagine an entire album of shit like tell me you love me and magic finger? shit would be one of the best rock records ever. turtle power.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTyrcCuB55Q

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIJUWqipWRU

this is sick:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xVn33X-OpM8

100% sincere, i would like a zappa fan to break down the humor in the "200 motels" film

There isn't any. Some of the music is good though.

Yeah, it's absurdist, and absurd =/= funny.

It feels like so often I try again with an unfamiliar, to me, album and it's like one step forward and two steps back. Like I recently played through all of Just Another Band for the first time ever, I thought "Billy the Mountain" was actually a decent absurdist take on the side-long prog epic and I appreciated where he was going with that one. But then "Magdalena" came on and just, yeah, that's just indefensible smut that doesn't serve any "social commentary" or anything...

xp

I was thinking "surreal", but yeah, absurdist works too. The film's primary idea is that "touring makes you crazy", and it comes off like one big, disassociative episode.

Cmon George Duke saying "I carry a copy of downbeat magazine in my back pocket so cats will think I know what's happening" is funny. Also Keith Moon as a vacuum.

The vacuum story line comes from a piece called "The Pleated Gazelle." Some of that was used for 200 Motels.

SHE HAD A TERRIBLE FIGHT WITH HER OLD BOY FRIEND ONE NIGHT. SHE TOLD HIM TO GO AWAY AND BEAT HIM WITH A PLASTIC FISH. SHE ATE SOME VIENNA SAUSAGES TO CALM DOWN. THEN SHE MET A NEWT RANCHER . . . A YOUNG LAD WHO RAISED NEWTS SO RICH PEOPLE COULD HAVE COATS MADE OUT OF THEM. SHE LOVED HIM A LOT, AND THEY STARTED SHACKING UP ON THE RANCH WHERE HE GREW THE NEWTS. EVERYTHING WAS FINE EXCEPT HE WAS IN LOVE WITH AN INDUSTRIAL VACUUM CLEANER . . .

Absurdist in the extreme, but yeah I guess funny if you're in the right mood.

it certainly has funny elements (if you like that kind of thing), but there's a strong undercurrent of nightmarish paranoia running throughout

honestly the Mad Libs component to his lyrics often pisses me off more than the outright hateful shit

lol I never made the Mad Libs comparison, but now I will never think of his lyrics in the same way again.

Kurt, thanks for that Audioactive mix, it's pretty interesting. It confirms my belief that the sound of his band, especially his guitar, is much less to my tastes by the 80s. I liked the 1984 "reggae" arrangement of "King Kong" though.

PO4:
Willie the pimp
Peaches
Uncle Remus
You’re probably wondering why I’m here

Not really but tell us anyway.

How’d I miss the Mad Libs thing before? That’s right on target.

The (adjective) (noun)

The Pleated Gazelle

HAHAHA I am so hilarious.

You fool! I wasn’t actually trying to be funny, just mocking those morons who think THEY themselves are funny, DO U SEE?

the entire first album by vril (the bob drake surf project, not the nazi vril) has song titles in this format:

https://www.discogs.com/release/2524059-Vril-Effigies-In-Cork

Add an article to the beginning and “The Preening Docent” could also be an Edward Gorey book.

Mark Leyner wrote [writes?] in that Mad Lib style, which I found utterly unbearable at novel length.

Everything, including the vault and FZ's name and likeness, sold to Universal. https://www.billboard.com/pro/frank-zappa-song-publishing-catalogs-universal-music-group-archive/

Also, last year Lady Gaga sold the Laurel Canyon house that included the UMRK. I wonder who owns it now.

Hold on aren't Universal the company that lost shitloads of literally irreplaceable recordings in a fire?

They're going to replace everybody else's lost masters with Zappa guitar solos and hope no-one's the wiser.