Frank Zappa: Classic or Dud?

I'm sure I mentioned it upthread, but in the doc, where he's on Letterman and complaining that the London Symphony Orchestra came *this close* to getting it ... gtfo out, Frank. Like anything you throw at someone in the LSO is going to challenge them technically.

if he falls short who would know enough to know? except other mere snobs and nerds lol and who cares what nerds and snobs think!

anyway good quotes! one of the things i liked abt the alex winter doc is that it has interview footage from very close to the end of his life (when he knew his number was up and he was probably also in some pain). in the footage he is just less finally minded to keep up the pretence that actually he *doesn't* care and is *never* moved by *anything*: you get a glimpse of how very much it did matter

(but what cracks the facade and causes his i'm no mugg-mask to slip just a little is like, him dying! which seems doubly poignant!!)

wait i don't agree abt the LSO! even the most celebrated professional orchestras are sometimes p bad at the things FZ might be demanding of them

(such as extreme rhythmic precision)

that interview pretty much nails it, that smug dismissiveness I can give fucking stand

ugh can't stand

wait i don't agree abt the LSO! even the most celebrated professional orchestras are sometimes p bad at the things FZ might be demanding of them

Maybe! But I doubt it's because it's simply beyond their capabilities, it's probably because it's fucking stupid because it's *designed* to be a pain in the ass. It'd be like, I dunno, ELP crashing the LSO and saying "yeah, but can you do this!" and then playing a 20 minute drum solo, and a 30 minute organ solo and then a full-band chops-fest for an hour, and the LSO (those snobs!) would be, "um, no, probably not."

ok but he doesn't say it's "beyond their capability:" he says they came *this close* to getting it (which is why i think it's the rhythmic drag that's inherent to orchestral music that disappoints him) (i mean these days it could be ironed out with three weeks as opposed to three days rehearsal but he's never going to get the three weeks bcz that's not how the classical orchestra industry works)

tbf composers complaining about orchestras not performing their work correctly is pretty common! There so many things that can go wrong.

Tbf = To be...Frank?

Eh, orchestral players are trained in a particular repertoire and can be notoriously resistant to contemporary avant-garde music. Can't say about LSO in particular.3xp

Part of me has been itching to make a post about what album has "Wham! Bam! Gamelan!" on it.

I don't remember the exact quote, but sure, it could have simply been a matter of time. And Zappa, as was his wont, iirc also complained at length about their cost. If he wanted to get it "right" then, yes, go figure, it might have taken more time and money. But what a dick you have to be to write something designed to be challenging, fly out to London, hire (iirc) the b-listers (because they were cheaper), give them two days to record your ridiculous piece of music, and then complain on national tv that they came *this close* to capturing your genius. Better to just hire rock mutants to solo over ironic vamps.

(xp to self)
But that's the kind of pun FZ would probably not make, too obvious. His have to like broken crossword puzzle clues. Come to think of it, didn't Viv Stanshall have a whole album full of titles that were xword clues?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWuqWElB8Ic

Zappa would title it something like "Gamelan Your Face." Or "Gamelan Hump." "Gamelan-a-Ding Dong."

They also may rehearse a new piece as a group just teo or three times, which I'm sure was fewer than Zappa was used to.xps

Two

Lol JiC

You could do a whole thread of those.

But if so, what was Zappa, modern composer, expecting? It's always someone else's fault. In that interview I posted he even complained that the *Synclaviar* couldn't get it.

Groening: And it seems that this technology is the answer to Frank Zappa's problem. Here it is exactly the way you want it to be performed.

Zappa:Well, even with the most perfect Synclavier performance, you still don't get 100%, because there are certain nuances that are going to be absent just because the music is being played by samples, which means every note will always be the same sound.

Ask Josh in Chicago to make up a Zappaesque song title containing a given word.

I don't remember the exact quote, but sure, it could have simply been a matter of time. And Zappa, as was his wont, iirc also complained at length about their cost. If he wanted to get it "right" then, yes, go figure, it might have taken more time and money. But what a dick you have to be to write something designed to be challenging, fly out to London, hire (iirc) the b-listers (because they were cheaper), give them two days to record your ridiculous piece of music, and then complain on national tv that they came *this close* to capturing your genius. Better to just hire rock mutants to solo over ironic vamps.

― Josh in Chicago, Thursday, 27 January 2022 bookmarkflaglink

That wasn't my impression. iirc he said the orchestra got like 80% of it without any anger, and he felt it was good enough to get a recording of it.

Zappa in interviews rarely seemed angry, imo, that's part of the smugness. What rubbed me the wrong way about the Letterman interview (again, just from memory, it was months ago) was his inability to just admit someone else did something right. As I remember it, they were talking about the LSO, and Letterman might have suggested that the LSO is pretty good, and Zappa conceded that they *were* good and got about 80% there (or whatever number it was). Which is ... still pretty backhanded!

Yeah a completely successful premiere of an ensemble piece is surely the rarer case. Also, that sounds like a fair point to make about the Synclavier!xp

Zappa in interviews rarely seemed angry, imo, that's part of the smugness
I tend to agree, but can you elaborate?

He should have punched Letterman obv.

he shd have got the World's Most Dangerous Band to premiere his work

Perhaps JiC is saying that the smugness is a form of thinly repressed anger, which could be adressed in many ways without resorting to fisticuffs.

Zappa conceded that they *were* good and got about 80% there (or whatever number it was). Which is ... still pretty backhanded!

― Josh in Chicago, Thursday, 27 January 2022 bookmarkflaglink

Interesting how you are getting me to defend a guy I hate.

He brings out the best in us.

xpost Well, I got the sense (and again, just imo; I'm no expert/fan, but I've seen a lot of his interviews) that Zappa always behaved not just like he was smarter/better than everyone else, but that it was just barely within his powers of patience to put up with whatever dumb question he was being asked. Ask him about something familiar, like Motown or Beethoven, and it's almost beneath him to speak about it, because neither is up to his vague (unattainable?) standard/ideal. But there's an undercurrent of frustration/insecurity in his disdain, because he knows he's incapable of a pop run like Motown, or something like Beethoven, so better to just dismiss it as beneath him. Too boring, too primitive, too popular or whatever. And then if his decades of alternatives themselves often fall short, too, better to blame it on the fickle demands of music industry, or his musicians, or the inability of audiences to truly understand the music in his head. So he kind of attains this sort of zen arrogance, not angry, just ... impatiently patient. Smug. Perpetually waiting for people to catch up but intentionally pulling just out of reach.

I don't like Sparks that much, but my favorite parts of that doc came whenever Ron broke character and smiled or something. I never doubted that band (or, say, another Zappy-y band, 10cc) was having fun, whereas Zappa, it's all about the work, because if you're always working and complaining about work then people assume it's *hard* work, and if it's hard and you're doing so much of it, then you must be really good at it. Not like those pop acts, just doing it for fun.

Anyway. Did Zappa have an opinion on his fly-shit-on-paper precursor Carl Stalling?

that's the impression I get from when he hosted SNL too, just this constant atmosphere of "you guys don't understand humor like I do" which led to him half-assing everything like a 13-year old who thinks he's too cool for the school play

the thing with Sparks is there is real joy in that music which is something that rarely comes through with Zappa. not coincidentally the worst Sparks albums are the ones where they don't really seem to be having any fun

Zappa in interviews rarely seemed angry, imo

I actually don't recall ever hearing the guy even raise his voice

Did he ever weigh in on Lennon's Plastic Ono Band?

Ascension are a lot better at the concept of Shutting up and Playing though Zappa is going for something slightly different.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DOgDxKtshDY

I mean Zappa's so clearly brimming with contained anger, do you guys really think the only form that anger takes is yelling?

Of course not.

I just think Letterman would have been better with fistfights.

A Qobuz ad showed up in my Instagram feed for the first time (good time for it); but for some reason, this was the face/tune they chose to feature:

https://i.imgur.com/Y5SIdTn_d.webp?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=medium

it's snowing across much of america, public service announcement

DO U SEE?

Joe Rogan sez eating Yellow Snow immunizes you against Covid.

#onethread

When you’ve loved and lost as Frank has

Only three people have ever silenced the Maracanã: the Pope, Frank Zappa and me.

After all the recent “Zappa is an asshole” posts I’ve been listening to a ton of FZ, trying to reconnect with what attracted me to his music in the first place, and discover which parts are still relevant to me.

I first heard him via a friend’s older brother’s 60s LPs, and while the “smut” and the weirdness were probably initial draws for a pre-teen, so were the odd melodies of “Take Your Clothes Off” and “Let’s Make the Water Turn Black” and “Dog Breath.” I don’t return to the earliest records often, but still appreciate their diverse influences and groundbreaking sound collages when I do.

The Flo & Eddie years are difficult for me. I certainly spent enough time listening to “Billy the Mountain” and watching midnight showings of 200 Motels but the comedy and the vulgarity overshadow the music here, and I’m rather embarrassed that a record containing “Magdalena” is still on my shelf.

It’s great that the vulgar comedy completely disappears for Waka/Jawaka and The Grand Wazoo and I like those records fine, but I don’t listen to the instrumental records much, either jazz or classical, including Hot Rats.

I’ve determined it’s the mid-70s band that still holds the most appeal and interest for me. The humor is still there, although somewhat less sexual and more absurdist. With the addition of George Duke and Chester Thompson (and sometimes Jean Luc Ponty) they become a ridiculously well-rehearsed jazz fusion band, with stop-on-a-dime tempo changes and the always-incredible Ruth Underwood layering the “cartoon music” on top. “Echidna’s Arf” and “Inca Roads” are still amazing pieces of music to me, and I love when this band reworks an oldie like “King Kong.”

I somehow had never seen The Roxy Movie until this past weekend, and it’s amazing, a great antidote for all the “angry Zappa” typecasting. Watching his hand-movements conducting, or his little dance moves, or his scampering over to play percussion, he seemed genuinely happy at that point.

After that it’s rapidly diminishing returns. I didn’t like most of Sheik Yerbouti or the Joe’s Garage trilogy, and heard only bits and pieces after that. I may investigate some more 80s records as part of my research, but I don’t hold high hopes.

Mid 70s bootlegs though, bring 'em on!

i had the opposite response to The Roxy movie... one of my fav records ever and I had it pictured in my head how it looked etc. once I saw the live footage of Bebop Tango and saw Frank just like tossing a woman around the stage with such distain it turned me off! he was happy, and that band cooked, sure, but he still hated woman and Napoleon Brock turned out to be a creep so that is a deterrent too.

Agreed, "Bebop Tango" is the worst, half an hour of audience participation bullshit which could have been excised for some of the songs that made the box set but not the movie.

have you heard the roxy sessions box? thats where all the gold is.

Haven't bought it but I've heard a bunch of it, yes. Actually today I was listening to a bootleg recorded in my hometown, slightly after the Helsinki shows on You Can't Do That... Vol. 2. Interesting to hear the songs without the overdubs and embellishments that went onto Roxy & Elsewhere. Lots of different arrangements and ad libs, lots of fun.

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=zappa+st+paul+1974

one thing that came to mind listening to Zappa's output from the Flo & Eddie period onward is that he blew a lot of his talent doing South Park-level shit; both the endless toilet humor and the whole "fuck you, if you don't like this then the next one's gonna be even worse" attitude. not to mention always posturing himself as the smartest guy in the room. trouble is he's much less funny than Parker & Stone and when he makes me laugh it's almost by accident. now when I hear something like "Uncle Fucker" I think "ahh, this is what Frank was trying to do"

(obviously this doesn't apply to everything he did from 1970 on but that general attitude is all over the place on those records)