Outside Cats - is it a sin?

Outdoor cats eating birds is a nontrivial issue. Waving it away as "nature gonna nature" oversimplifies.

If it were not for the close relationship between domestic cats and people, the number of descendants of the original feline species who later became domesticated cats would be extremely small and they would all live in a very small area in north africa. we are directly responsible for the vast population of cats on earth. the millions of small birds they kill every year is a direct result of our actions or inactions.

But isn't that also saying that cats made a strategic alliance? Cats absolutely benefit from the cat-human relationship, they hitched themselves to a good ride. And they've been work animals for most of that time, they still are a lot of places. Plus of course they're fascinating weird lovable roommates. I'm not going to argue against the human-cat relationship. But I agree that its worst effects should be mitigated.

kinda hoping some intrepid ILXOR will turn this thread title into a song

If it were not for the close relationship between domestic cats and people, the number of descendants of the original feline species who later became domesticated cats would be extremely small and they would all live in a very small area in north africa. we are directly responsible for the vast population of cats on earth. the millions of small birds they kill every year is a direct result of our actions or inactions.

Aimless OTM. There was a sentiment expressed upthread like if a bird (who can fly) can't get away from a cat (who can't fly), then maybe that bird wasn't meant to live. That's the oversimplification I was referring to. Like, okay, but if humans have their thumb on the evolutionary scale then it's not really a fair Darwininian shakeout.

It's morally fraught, but I strongly doubt anyone whose mind is already made up is going to change their mind because of what we type here.

cos everytime I tried to tell you
the words just came out wrong
I hope an ilxor says outside cats are a sin
in a song

I'm not a cat owner and probably never will be, but the happiest, friendliest cat I've known was an indoor-outdoor cat. His name was Diabolo and he belonged to my housemates at the little house I lived at in slightly-rural Normandy. The first time I saw the place it was at dusk and there was mist over the fields, and then this white cat came walking out of the mist, and I thought, "yes, I want to live here." There were cows in the field, and sometimes he would slip under the fence and go hang out with the cows, who seemed to tolerate it just fine. But he loved people and when you got home he would come running to meet you just like a dog and jump up to your hand to be petted. Of course as an indoor-outdoor cat he didn't live long; he was hit by a car a couple of years after that. I have no idea how the ethics and wisdom of keeping him inside vs. outside adds up, but I'm glad I got to know him; he was a great cat.

re: impact of kits on the flappy folk ima just drop this here w/o comment

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocene_extinction

again, not gonna comment but if i were to comment it’d prob be something along the lines of pots and kettles except like the pot has caused and is causing myriad — genocides? is that too loaded a term? well i spose we’re actually genociding ourselves/each other anyway so let’s just go with extinctions. and the kettle is one tiny weapon in the pot’s vast armory. and the pot is all “smdh @ u, kettle, with ur bloodthirsty destructive ways, tsk tsk, tut tut” while lounging on an ever-growing mountain of bones.

outside cats, it's too dark to read

Feels like I'm knockin' on heaven's cat door.

when I look back upon my life
it's never with a sense of shame
i ate the bird but i accept no blame
it's no sin

loll!

birbocide

There was a sentiment expressed upthread like if a bird (who can fly) can't get away from a cat (who can't fly), then maybe that bird wasn't meant to live.

Our cat doesn't do much hunting (or at least killing) anymore, even if his presence keeps pests away. But over the summer he did bring home a bird in his mouth. We were so proud of him, but then we learned that West Nile was making a lot of birds sick and vulnerable to old, fat cats.

ok if you look at the ethics of outdoor cattitude in terms of the CAT dying earlier, you may be thinking about it the wrong way round

Like, free-roaming predatory wild animals dying earlier is part and parcel of being wild predators - they take their chances. In some sense they may be happier this way, even given the risk. That is as it should be. There will be cars and foxes and coyotes and such. If you don't want your cat exposed to those possibilities, then keep your cat inside.

The proper question is about the animals they will inevitably eat when they're out there, and whether that is cool or not cool. I think that it is not cool, for reasons already discussed. But this, this is the relevant question in the thread.

The proper question is about the animals they will inevitably eat when they're out there, and whether that is cool or not cool. I think that it is not cool, for reasons already discussed.

considering that the majority of ILX is not vegan, (I'm not either), this whole "how dare you let your cat eat animals" stance feels a bit hypocritical. If the folks who are saying this are themselves vegan, then I stand corrected.

I totally get and respect the "i don't want my cat to get killed so i keep it inside" argument. Also, I am very glad that people have started posted pics of their cats in this thread.

personally I'm glad my landlord's cat killed that rat.

i stood over the rat and told it I was glad it was dead

but that's my fear of rats talking

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SSuH1E4yZxA

if you've had to smell and/or clean up ratshit, (not saying you haven't), you also have other reasons besides fear to appreciate the rodent death

don't you mean this one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K4H1RHqVI58

voted other, because it depends on where the "outside" is. would be a sin for us, as we have a nearby busy road and a garden that attracts birds.

this whole "how dare you let your cat eat animals" stance feels a bit hypocritical.

Well yeah it would be, if anyone had ever said what you quoted there. The issue isn't "cats shouldn't eat creatures" but "cumulatively, cats decimate wild bird populations and so we should consider that when deciding to let our pets roam outdoors"

sarahell, upon further thought I think it should be this one, do u see?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4CYrJ1POzns

cumulatively, cats decimate wild bird populations and so we should consider that when deciding to let our pets roam outdoors

uh, that's just a more politely worded version of what I quoted ... still think that if y'all are merrily eating meat yourselves it still seems hypocritical. Or maybe the birds in your yards are just inherently more worthy of life than the ones you eat? idk ... it's not horrible to think that way tbh

Well yeah it would be, if anyone had ever said what you quoted there.

thx GD. I was going to say that climate change deniers and minimizers make an argument very similar to saying you must be a vegan to have legitimate concerns about the effects of half a billion cats on the ecosystem. It runs along the lines of: people who are clamoring about the climate crisis, but who still make use of gas-powered autos, fly in airplanes, or consume items transported by trucks are nothing but hypocrites, and they can't suggest that anyone else ought modify their habits until they have stopped using all fossil fuels themselves.

I've had inside cats all my adult life and haven't had any qualms about keeping them inside. Twice in the late oughts, an untagged/uncollared cat wandered up and adopted us, and I got it neutered and kept it fed as an outside cat. The first, Bruce, was a total stoner pal, and loved to climb into the large pot where I'd sown catnip and just laze around and occasionally smoke a bowl eat a leaf. He was safe in our fenced back yard, but one night he wandered into the front yard and was attacked and killed by roaming neighborhood dogs. This happened under my daughter's bedroom window, so she got to hear the whole thing. The next year, Ziggy adopted us, and one day went from apparently healthy to obviously dead of a respiratory issue before I could even get him to the vet. I like outside cats, and there are a couple on our block that come up to me for skritches, but the emotional whiplash is a bit much.

sara, the issue is more one of vast ecosystem destruction with songbirds as a major marker and domesticated and feral outdoor cats as one of the key concerns
https://www.birds.cornell.edu/home/bring-birds-back
https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms2380

there are some seriously delicious vegan "meats" and "cheeses" out there ... like, hey, you care about the bird population and ecosystems and you are keeping your cats inside because of it, that is a thoughtful thing to do ... another environmentally thoughtful thing you could do is reduce your own meat consumption.

The wildlife issue with domestic cats is far less killing and eating than killing for sport.

The “oh but you eat meat” argument would work if you’re talking to someone who goes out in the neighborhood killing birds and squirrels for the hell of it.

The first, Bruce, was a total stoner pal, and loved to climb into the large pot where I'd sown catnip and just laze around and occasionally smoke a bowl eat a leaf.

We have friends a couple of blocks away whose dog had clearly eaten something that was making it act off, and it turns out she got into the stoner neighbor's yard and went to town on a pot plant. The vet essentially said she just needed to sleep it off.

also imagine a factory farmed chicken would behave a bit like Sporky if released in the wild. the evil is baked into the bird's existence.

the problem with eating bird meat isn't that we are depleting a once thriving bird population. The problem is that we are fostering a monstrous bird population incompatible with the natural world, similar to fostering a monstrous predator cat population. In this comparison, eliminating the factory farmed bird population entirely is more similar to keeping your cat indoors. It makes no sense to draw comparison between eliminating the factory farmed bird population and eliminating the wild bird population.

considering that the majority of ILX is not vegan, (I'm not either), this whole "how dare you let your cat eat animals" stance feels a bit hypocritical

Considering that the majority of ILX eats meat, and people are made of meat, and people are very environmentally destructive, then the whole "don't eat people" stance is also a bit hypocritical.

I mean, since I eat bacon and hamburgers I might as well eat bald eagles and spotted owls and my neighbors' children, right?

Any other stance would be... hypocritical eek

I feel like we've collectively addressed the weaknesses of sarahell's 'hypocrisy' argument now.

"still think that if y'all are merrily eating meat yourselves it still seems hypocritical"

Then I still think you're not grasping the argument being put forth. But I get that it can be pretty difficult to part with a "the people I don't agree with a just hypocrites" comfort blanket.

(Tho fwiw I'm not a staunch "you shouldn't let your cat go outside" person)

as milo already correctly pointed out, the emphasis on cats being 'allowed to eat birds' is somewhat misplaced since non-feral cats that hunt and kill small birds and animals rarely eat them anyway; they are usually very well-fed and do it for reasons other than appeasing their hunger.

because they're adorable little psychopaths

I was inspired to become vegetarian by a lost cat poster. I realized I couldn't justify my compassion for a cat while eating a different animal.

whenever you have the choice between killing and not killing, not killing is best. keep kitties safe inside, play with them a lot, provide stimulating environments and experiences so they don’t get bored, be a good servant and steward to all the creatures around you.

some cats won’t ever be happy with that, though, and some cat owners can’t provide it. then you have to balance the happiness/misery of the animal whose life you’ve personally taken responsibility for with the dangers and vulnerabilities of your immediate ecosystem, which can differ vastly from country to country, region to region, neighborhood to neighborhood.

gonna paws here to reiterate, keeping kitties inside is best and everyone shld try it wherever feasible

but there’s no pristine ecological system left to preserve, those horses escaped that barn centuries ago, and the barn is on fire and the horses are on fire and everything is on fire and the rising seas will swallow it all up anyway

https://www.britannica.com/science/invasive-species

https://www.un.org/sustainabledevelopment/blog/2019/05/nature-decline-unprecedented-report/

this is not to abdicate responsibility! even if everything’s burning it’s still morally indefensible to just give up and add to the blaze for the numb nihilism of it. but a dozen ilxors and their pets, strewn across the globe, will have no impact either way.

so hug your cats, spay and neuter your kids, skynet for presidetn 2024

also what is the root of Neando’s rat antipathy, i met a rat once and it was a very nice person

https://imgur.com/a/XYhJYft

Pele sez go veg

https://imgur.com/a/B7F4Iql

also buy four of horses by softer drive, available at a bandcamp near u

https://imgur.com/a/m6Lvd1V

FTR I am well aware that when I open a can of cat food for my inside cat, what he's getting is bits of birds and fish who were once alive. Further, I know that I regularly nom on animals. That doesn't mean that letting my cats loose inside the Small Mammal House at the zoo would be okay. There are differences in degree and in kind at play here.

Now it makes sense why they asked me to leave that zoo

I have an indoor cat and I am vegetarian, hmu if you want me to post an opinion itt

If god had wanted cats indoors hed have made them with little houses already around them imo

The diversion into the morality of veganism in animals is already a strong contender for 2022 best ofs

right like church mice and barn owls