boundaries

That's brilliant. I've tried to express similar in the past, but it came out much much less graciously.

i think he was only able to utter it thanks to therapy, but it's been very instructive esp when it comes to dealing with my very well meaning and frankly sweet + nice parents. but you still have to, not TELL them, but *suggest* they fuck off now and then. it's a good ability. plus 150 XP any time you scorn your aging parents

I wish I'd had that line to hand 30 years ago

a friend today told me they can't use their laundry machine cos she is in a unit next to the main unit, and the main unit is occupied by someone who tested positive for COVID.

she needed to do it this afternoon before her shift. I suggested a laundromat and she got snippy and said "why are you telling me to go to a laundromat? why aren't you letting me wash clothes at your place?"

uh, because my mother is in the midst of a huge load of laundry that won't be done for hours. otherwise I would have.

I offer to help all of the time, this particular time it wasn't really convenient, mom would have to take out scores of wet clothes and wait hours to dry them.

Have you learned something from not making other people’s problem your problem from this incident?

is this friend someone who you are currently having sex with or would like to have sex with if living situations were different?

Sorry if that question is crass, but it is a factor in setting/maintaining boundaries imo and lol ime

I suggested a laundromat and she got snippy and said "why are you telling me to go to a laundromat? why aren't you letting me wash clothes at your place?"

Not sure this is a boundary issue as much as poor communication. She’d have done better to ask directly on the first place rather than hinting. And the answer sounds a bit brusque.

But it’s urgent and key that we know the details of the sexual relationship status ( and intentions )of all your friends and acquaintances.

xp she sounds like a dose tbqh, someone getting brusque over your own needs coming first like that = their problem, not yours

gyac otm

Seconded. Feel like the thread should be called Boundaries: Why are they so bad and hated difficult?

The thread title is fine, you can discuss your inability to keep boundaries, everyone has had this difficulty at some point usually.

It's a work in progress.

I divide all my friends into “would smash” and “uggo” so I can set the proper boundaries. Simple as.

A fine, time-honored approach.

you only have two categories?!

Really glad the thread has turned into this

i was merely trying to think of any reason why this would not be a clear cut "not my problem" situation, and sexual interest is the only thing I came up with ... sorry.

i will get me coat ...

to question above, can't really say I learned anything if I keep doing the same thing over and over, can I?

bullying and intimidation through formative years led me to be a doormat, I made gains in the opposite direction in my early 30s, but stress and declining self-esteem kind of erased those gains.

at least seeing everybody's reaction that my response wasn't irrational helps because I don't even have that anymore as a center.

Building self esteem for yourself takes a while but when you do it, it lasts longer than external validation IMO and the start of it in my experience is setting your boundaries and making people aware of them - saying no, not putting other peoples needs first, not setting yourself on fire for others to be warm. It’s difficult to do but you can look yourself in the mirror. Good luck with it.

Of course part of that can be learning to recognise that you have boundaries and that you're entitled to them

yeah, external validation is kinda like taking a pain reliever for a chronic problem that needs like, surgery. definitely going to be my biggest goal in 2022 is getting away from that.

Yeah sorry, that’s a hugely important point to make

xp good luck with it, cut them all loose IMO and you will do better for it

i think often, and i'm not necessarily saying this is the case with neanderthal's recent story, often the person who is the 'doormat' gets benefits from the arrangement. like the boundary-crossing party sort of knows what they're doing is wrong, and so in order to keep the arrangement going, there's a material exchange. i'm thinking specifically of the case with my parents. they kept giving me stuff well into my adulthood, and because i already had a hard time becoming an independent adult, it kept me dependent and in the boundary-crossing relationship for much too long.

i think it's worth reflecting on what you might be getting out of relationships where you seem to be the one whose boundaries are crossed. there are needs there, but you aren't meeting them this way.

That’s a great post map and so fully agree

often the person who is the 'doormat' gets benefits from the arrangement. like the boundary-crossing party sort of knows what they're doing is wrong, and so in order to keep the arrangement going, there's a material exchange.

yeah, and this scenario is something that can be considered normal in a professional context. Like, if you work in a service profession, there's the classic difficult customer who gives you a big tip. And part of me wants to say, that's okay, if that's just your job and you can shrug it off at the end of the day. However, it shouldn't extend the same way into your personal life.

I think I tend towards the moat of alligators, and so an abundance of boundaries (qualitative not quantative, its not like a list just a state of mind) can be my disfunction. Where I try to address this mostly is with other people who I have to realise are warmer and more open in their natural temperament than me. So the proper and loving thing to do is to warm up.
I guess I realise I act as if there is a simple equation between: boundaries = cold, absence of boundaries = warm. I know I am simplifying something there, but my battle is from coldness to warmth, not the other way around. That is a product of me living within mostly stable familial and personal relationships, so I have the freedom to strive towards warmth without too much fear of nasty punches. Anyone have any experience of productively reducing some boundaries: how/andwhy?
My wife is the other way around which is very good. She could do with more boundaries and I need to open up more. I think we have significantly helped each other out.

my battle is from coldness to warmth, not the other way around. That is a product of me living within mostly stable familial and personal relationships, so I have the freedom to strive towards warmth without too much fear of nasty punches.

yep, that's my background as well, especially in terms of family stuff. I set boundaries with my family from a ... fairly young age, actually.

I was texting with my younger cousin a month or so ago about why I wasn't a flower girl at her parents wedding. I was 6 or 7 when her parents got married, so, perfect flower girl age. My aunt asked her sister, my mom, whether I would be a flower girl. My mom said yes. No one asked me if I wanted to be a flower girl. ... This goes back to the child as property topic.... I don't remember when my mother informed me about my flower girl role, but I think it wasn't that far in advance of the wedding (which I think was expedited due to my aunt's pregnancy ... I don't think she was secretive about the fact she was pregnant, she just didn't want to be visibly pregnant in the pictures). And I was offended that I wasn't asked if I wanted to be a flower girl. Yeah, it was kinda bratty. But I felt like I deserved the same respect an adult would receive about something like that. ... So I said no. Not gonna do it. I don't remember how long my mother and I argued about this, but it was long enough so that she realized that I was not going to back down without some serious disciplinary escalation. And my mother decided that it wasn't worth it. (There would be plenty of other things where she decided it was worth disciplinary escalation, but not this one.) So, fortunately, my uncle-to-be had a 3 year old niece who was not opposed to being a flower girl, so they had the one flower girl, and that's just the way it was, and I don't think anyone bore any real resentment about it.

I was the same, I was a terror at school because I refused to be treated any less than an adult would wrt respect. Not so much at home because my parents did treat me with respect from as young as I can remember and I sincerely love them for it. Even though I am very strong on not treating kids as property, I've realised later in life that brattiness is definitely real and good parenting doesn't just ignore it wholesale. Sounds like your mum was good at picking her battles though.
I don't know why certain kids are better at standing their ground than others? Do you think you got it from your parents? Mine were crazy strict on never ever lying to us (they didn't even mention Santa Claus as kids), strong personalities that valued integrity highly.

I don't know why certain kids are better at standing their ground than others? Do you think you got it from your parents?

Well, first off, my parents were/are mentally stable and had no substance abuse problems and there wasn't any domestic violence between them. Viewing my parents as reasonable and safe was definitely a key aspect for my assertiveness, I'm sure. Though there was definite strictness when it came to other adults and being "in public" ... I think it instilled in me the sense that I can only be "myself" with people who loved me, and that I had to assume a certain role with everyone else. I probably posted about this in some other thread that both LL and I are on, but, when I was about 8, my grandfather went into politics, and we had to attend a number of social functions as the "warm, loving family" and it was very important that I behave and dress appropriately at those, and of course, smile!

Sarahell yr story made me think about why I’m pretty rabid about my boundaries - I wasn’t allowed any at all, until I left home. My mum stayed at home with my two younger siblings till I was 13 and then I was expected to take over most over the cooking, as well as babysitting after school (I was 7-10yrs older than my sibs), household chores etc. And my parents would loan me out on babysitting duty without asking me. Then I started working 20+hrs p/week from 15-18 on top of that (9hr shifts Saturday and Sunday, a 4hr shift on a weekday, plus 9hr shifts every statutory holiday). I honestly felt burnt out by the time I got to college.

Now I don’t do any-fucking-thing I don’t want to. If I feel any type of emotional pressure or manipulation in a friendship I’m out. If you have any kind of expectations of my time and energy, we’re not gonna be friends.

I think I got my first real taste of boundary setting when at 21 I realized I didn’t actually have to keep up a relationship with my asshole older brother (9yrs older). I didn’t even say anything - I just ghosted him after a particularly bad incident where he said some really cruel shit to me. It’s been 20yrs and I’ve literally said 10 words to him (only bc my mum tried to violate my boundary after I’d clearly stated it and tricked me - jokes on her tho bc it was so awkward for everyone that she hasn’t tried it again). As far as I know he’s never asked anyone why I cut ties and he’s never tried to initiate contact with me (which says a lot about the state of things as they were).

Since then I’ve been pretty fuckin slapdash with cutting off friends and family, tbh. Like, I could probably do with being a bit more forgiving but I consider the fact I’m still in contact with my shit parents is about as much grace as I have to give in this lifetime.

It bugs me that I have so little control over my environment that I am stuck with neighbours I'd rather not know exist.
That and having the shared space between me and where things delivered to me are delivered , letters, papers etc. I once had mail at least coming in through teh door of teh flat until it was found that fire regulations hadn't been complied with and they had to replace teh doors without letterboxes.
I think I actually may have been advised to take the flat taht didn't open onto the top of the stairs but in doing so I opened myself to have some mindless idiot decide that they owned taht space at teh top of teh stairs and could block me in by parking bikes in the way or leaving rubbish there.
I think those may be criteria one has to be aware of when choosing a space. & wish I could choose my neighbours but you don't really get that choice do you. You just expect people to recognise borders and shared spaces and things.

you don't really get that choice do you. You just expect people to recognise borders and shared spaces and things.

*sigh* yeah

Like, I could probably do with being a bit more forgiving but I consider the fact I’m still in contact with my shit parents is about as much grace as I have to give in this lifetime.

this made me lmao, for real

a concept my friend put me onto this year, something I knew about for years but didn't know it had a name. This phenomenon seems relevant to the non-enforcement of boundaries: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missing_stair

anybody have a "missing stair" in their life? I used to, don't anymore. but when they're family, harder to get rid of (fortunately mine were just friends).

lol "missing stair" basically describes my boss

part of my job entails literally fixing missing stairs, while working with groups where there are metaphorical missing stairs ...

the project I've been working on for the past 8 months or so was initially blocked by a metaphorical missing stair ... who finally got removed from the building (partly stemming from an online interaction where I challenged this guy) ... anyway, turned out dude was a hoarder and had been doing his hoarding inside this building, which was totally against the code of conduct.

I’m the daughter of a mother who had narcissistic personality disorder and was a raging alcoholic. Many many people would have set boundaries but it was something I was totally unable to do for many reasons including that I loved her very much. I am a people pleaser and very conflict adverse so I’m awful at this. I really need to get better at this because it makes life so hard but I struggle with it so much. I’m an EA so that’s probably the worst position for me to have because I say yes to everything and get walked all over. Anyway, interesting thread. Will keep reading.

I also find the idea of someone not liking me or being mad at me intolerable. It’s a terrible combination of things which result in me never sticking up for myself ever. :/

I am a people pleaser and very conflict adverse so I’m awful at this.

do you feel like this is who you are because of the way your mom was, or do you feel like this is something innate to *you* regardless of your mom's problematic behavior?

ENBB I have that problem too. it is hard to stand up for yourself when your goal is not to be true to yourself but to preserve harmony with other people. and yet, one can know this and still not be able to avoid feeling this way (case in point...me).

it's kind of infuriating because I thought I had licked the problem. in my 20s, because I was unmedicated (and badly needed anxiety meds), and didn't have a lot of friends, I tended to be very paranoid about abandonment (for no discernable reason - nobody had 'abandoned' me before). then I got medicated and I was actually suddenly very good about boundaries, accepting people wouldn't like me at times, and not being afraid to be 'vulnerable'.

it's basically the reason I got promoted, I had a tough exterior, didn't mind being direct without being nasty, and people at work got annoyed at my demands and I didn't care, I didn't lose sleep at night.

one frustrating breakup and a 2 year period of extreme, overwhelming stress at work and I went back to my bad habits and haven't kicked them since. mostly because the stress never subsided. immediately after the 2 year period at work subsided, my dad dropped a bombshell on my brother and I that he wanted to move in with us and they were moving back to Florida, they got themselves in financial ruin, Pulse happened, Trump happened....like there's been no respite.

i also feel like gender expectations play a role in "people pleasing" tendencies? Like, I am conscious that I learned that behavior (the hard way) because it was how women were supposed to be, and a certain amount of it is engrained at this point. Obviously considering there are cis-men who are "people pleasers" ... it isn't entirely gendered.

xpost some of it possibly due to my dad, as I've mentioned before, I love him dearly (I mean lord knows I talk about him all the time), and he mellowed out in his 50s-60s which helped our relationship immensely, but it was testy in my youth and teens because he was a screamer as a kid, and his voice was so loud and booming he terrified us at times, sometimes flying off the handle for unfair/inconsistent reasons.

I still get anxiety hearing someone moving about in living room areas in strange houses because there were times I'd hear my dad poking around the living room and if he saw something he didn't like, he'd often barrel into the room and scream at us.

(he wasn't abusive, he didn't hit, but sometimes he just needed to be mindful that he was a big man with a big voice and we were 4 feet tall and timid).

so on days where I didn't make him mad and he didn't yell, I felt happy that I "pleased" him and avoided being yelled at.

I am a people pleaser and very conflict adverse so I’m awful at this.

do you feel like this is who you are because of the way your mom was, or do you feel like this is something innate to *you* regardless of your mom's problematic behavior?

― sarahell, Wednesday, January 5, 2022 3:31 PM (four minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

Good question. I have to think about it because I honestly don’t know. Probably a combination of both but definitely a lot of her influence. I wasn’t allowed to question anything she said ever and I constantly had to do things to keep the peace and not upset her etc.

"having to keep the peace", trying to avoid a fight/calamity early in life can definitely manifest itself later in life, for sure

Yeah - absolutely.

weirdly I just had an argument w/ teh same friend I had above and held my ground calmly and without budging. idk why it was so easy today, maybe i've just stopped giving a fuck this week.