dr feelgood is way too late in the era its gotta be the first ratt album or something
― kurt schwitterz, Wednesday, 29 December 2021 23:13 (two years ago) link
Citizen Kane of hair metal I'd suggest is the first Van Halen record (which Montrose for sure laid the groundwork for). "Dr. Feelgood," that's more of a symbolic last gasp, where the band peaked in popularity, got re-signed to a bazillion dollar contract and yet, never released anything of note ever again. And neither did any of their peers, afaict.
― Josh in Chicago, Wednesday, 29 December 2021 23:15 (two years ago) link
oh actually its bangkok shocks by hanoi rocks.
― kurt schwitterz, Wednesday, 29 December 2021 23:18 (two years ago) link
It's down to how you interpret "Citizen Kane," whether it means the blueprint for everything else that follows (in which case, yeah, Montrose or Van Halen) or whether it means the ultimate expression of the genre. The one author of the book thought Dr. Feelgood was the latter, iow the quintessential highpoint of the genre.
― Josefa, Wednesday, 29 December 2021 23:21 (two years ago) link
Hanoi Rocks and Montrose feel like ur-texts; I'm not sure how much hair metal resembles those acts (musically). I feel Van Halen really established the sleazy party vibe, and their adherents did their best to absorb the influence despite their general lack of inspiration or talent.
― Josh in Chicago, Wednesday, 29 December 2021 23:22 (two years ago) link
Seems like Hysteria>>>>Dr. Feelgood using that Citizen Kane metric.
― Precious, Grace, Hill & Beard LTD. (C. Grisso/McCain), Wednesday, 29 December 2021 23:26 (two years ago) link
One interesting thing in the book that the guys kept talkin about is that a ton of the early shit was coming out of later-day Christian Death style deathrock. Rozz Williams was huge in LA. Nikki Sixx was in London and there were a hundred other bands doing the same shit. It was a twisted post goth thing as much as it was David Lee Roth for at least a year.
― kurt schwitterz, Wednesday, 29 December 2021 23:33 (two years ago) link
You mean London the band, to be clear
― Josefa, Wednesday, 29 December 2021 23:35 (two years ago) link
yes ty
― kurt schwitterz, Wednesday, 29 December 2021 23:44 (two years ago) link
I think the problem with diagnosing a Citizen Kane without nominating something like Hysteria is that, for most of that core 84-90 period, most of the albums aren’t as well renowned as the big singles, the image or the live show.
Def Leppard an obvious exception (but again, how much or how far did DL transcend the hair metal scene with such gargantuan albums?), Crue probably by Dr Feelgood, maybe Poison to an extent
― Standard Liege & Lief (Master of Treacle), Wednesday, 29 December 2021 23:57 (two years ago) link
DL are too British hair metal is USA baby
― kurt schwitterz, Wednesday, 29 December 2021 23:59 (two years ago) link
Well part of the thing about Hysteria is that, in the book in question, the authors decided to focus on the US-based bands with some connection to the Sunset Strip scene, therefore Def Leppard wasn't a part of the conversation. Which I thought was kind of unfair and I expressed that opinion upthread. But the authors say in the podcast, if they had included foreign bands in their scope the whole project would've been exponentially more vast and daunting. Which makes sense. But I still think Pyromania and Hysteria were crucial inputs to that scene.
― Josefa, Thursday, 30 December 2021 00:04 (two years ago) link
I sorta mutter about hair metal in my old piece on Hysteria:
https://thequietus.com/articles/09833-def-leppard-hysteria
But basically those two American smash hit albums of theirs were...like, TOO good. Or too hyperpolished and pristine, which is not a complaint, but a description. The hair metal types were essentially sloppy/dramatic trashiness, DL and Lange were going "What if glam rock was industrial pop shot through with lasers?"
― Ned Raggett, Thursday, 30 December 2021 00:14 (two years ago) link
But how many of those LA bands would have killed to have Mutt Lange produce their music and make them sound less sloppy & trashy
― Josefa, Thursday, 30 December 2021 00:29 (two years ago) link
One does wonder!
― Ned Raggett, Thursday, 30 December 2021 00:31 (two years ago) link
Slippery When Wet: the Citizen Kane of Hair MetalNew Jersey: the Chimes at Midnight of New Jerseys
― Halfway there but for you, Thursday, 30 December 2021 00:35 (two years ago) link
As ultimate expression of the genre Dr Feelgood tracks in a wayFor me personally I’d say Cinderella “Long Cold Winter” but mostly just bc they’re a better band? Idk. I love Motley but I don’t wanna give them that much credit lol Whoever said RATT can meet me in the parking lot
― terminators of endearment (VegemiteGrrl), Thursday, 30 December 2021 00:36 (two years ago) link
IMO Hysteria is the hair metal album Elephant in the Room, compounded by the fact they’re not American, never mind from LA, so as said they’ve always been thought of as a band not strictly ‘of’ hair-metal
It helps to have good timing - if you release your biggest album in 1987 - the peak of hair metal IMO - you’re laughing.As already mentioned, as big as it was Dr Feelgood seems “late”
― Standard Liege & Lief (Master of Treacle), Thursday, 30 December 2021 00:39 (two years ago) link
Surely Appetite for Destruction takes the Citizen Kane title over Slippery, Hysteria and Feelgood?
― Siegbran, Thursday, 30 December 2021 00:40 (two years ago) link
Ratt was light years better than Cinderella
― kurt schwitterz, Thursday, 30 December 2021 00:45 (two years ago) link
Here's Martin Popoff's list of 20 albums that "invented" hair metal, going from influence to prototype:
Led Zeppelin — IV (November 1971)New York Dolls — New York Dolls (July 1973)Montrose — Montrose (October 1973)KISS — Alive! (September 1975)Aerosmith — Rocks (May 1976)Van Halen — Van Halen (February 1978)Def Leppard — High ‘n’ Dry (July 1981)Dokken — Breaking The Chains (July 1981)Loverboy — Get Lucky (October 1981)Mötley Crüe — Too Fast For Love (November 1981)Scorpions — Blackout (April 1982)Van Halen — Diver Down (April 1982)Twisted Sister — Under The Blade (September 1982)Def Leppard — Pyromania (January 1983)Quiet Riot — Metal Health (March 1983)Ratt — Ratt EP (August 1983)KISS — Lick It Up (September 1983)Mötley Crüe — Shout At The Devil (September 1983)Ratt — Out of The Cellar (March 1984)Dokken — Tooth And Nail (September 1984)
― Halfway there but for you, Thursday, 30 December 2021 00:46 (two years ago) link
Appetite is the Citizen Kane of hair metal if you take it to mean "everyone says it's the greatest ever, but they haven't watched/listened to it in forever and are really just saying that to sound cultured within their critical peer group." You kinda have to look at hair metal from the perspective of a teenage girl between 1983 (Shout at the Devil) and 1990 (Warrant's Cherry Pie) IMO. What would she think was the greatest album in the history of life? I'd probably argue for Skid Row's debut, myself.
― but also fuck you (unperson), Thursday, 30 December 2021 00:50 (two years ago) link
Actually, 1988 might actually take the cake purely in terms of box office
― Standard Liege & Lief (Master of Treacle), Thursday, 30 December 2021 00:55 (two years ago) link
RATT sucks and I hate them Appetite? Nah. GNR were forged in glam metal but (pardon stretching metaphor) as the first nail that was hammered into the coffin *of* glam metal thx for playing though
― terminators of endearment (VegemiteGrrl), Thursday, 30 December 2021 02:00 (two years ago) link
There was other early 80s hard rock bands whose sound and look while not being totally LA glam fits with this stuff
I'd say one band not yet mentioned in the thread is Night Ranger. I'd say Sammy Hagar's "Standing Hampton" and even some of the Canadian hard rock - not all tunes but some by April Wine, Helix and Aldo Nova (esp 'Fantasy') fits in with this music.
Helix was pretty sleazy.
― earlnash, Thursday, 30 December 2021 03:04 (two years ago) link
Cinderella rules, Ratt iz schitt
― hopefully this review helped someone (Neanderthal), Thursday, 30 December 2021 03:14 (two years ago) link
If the Orson Welles of a genre is someone who codified technical advances to make a new artistic grammar, here it would be Van Halen on the guitar and maybe Lange as a producer.
― Halfway there but for you, Thursday, 30 December 2021 03:15 (two years ago) link
Re: Cinderella -are there other well-known metal vocalists who sing mostly in falsetto, like Tom Keifer and King Diamond?
― Halfway there but for you, Thursday, 30 December 2021 03:23 (two years ago) link
Slaughter
― terminators of endearment (VegemiteGrrl), Thursday, 30 December 2021 03:24 (two years ago) link
yall warren dimartini is such a sick ass guitar player and frickin don letts directed the round and round video!
― kurt schwitterz, Thursday, 30 December 2021 03:39 (two years ago) link
Aw, I liked Ratt.
*kicks dirt despondently*
― Loud guitars shit all over "Bette Davis Eyes" (NYCNative), Thursday, 30 December 2021 03:39 (two years ago) link
I kinda always thought 'Out of the Cellar' was pretty good and they never really wrote any other good songs. They went way more pop on everything else that followed. I think Ratt was the classic club band that played that first album over and over for years and never really had a good follow up.
Dokken also went soft after 'Tooth and Nail'.
― earlnash, Thursday, 30 December 2021 03:43 (two years ago) link
The first EP and first two albums were good.
― Loud guitars shit all over "Bette Davis Eyes" (NYCNative), Thursday, 30 December 2021 03:50 (two years ago) link
stephen pearcy is a syphilitic goblin who could not carry a tune in a bucket and Ratt’s songs all sound like they were written with a ouija board and a rhyming dictionarydimartini is a great guitarist but he is not enough for me to endure sitting through literally any song
― terminators of endearment (VegemiteGrrl), Thursday, 30 December 2021 04:02 (two years ago) link
thanking u
― they were written with a ouija board and a rhyming dictionary (Neanderthal), Thursday, 30 December 2021 04:13 (two years ago) link
:D
― terminators of endearment (VegemiteGrrl), Thursday, 30 December 2021 04:39 (two years ago) link
I'd argue no Ratt albums are good, but some singles are GREAT. Particularly "Slip of the Lip." That song swings better than any other hair metal song and it's not even close.
― Ⓓⓡ. (Johnny Fever), Thursday, 30 December 2021 04:47 (two years ago) link
*gasface*
― terminators of endearment (VegemiteGrrl), Thursday, 30 December 2021 04:57 (two years ago) link
Redirect that gasface to "Way Cool Jr." and I'll join you.
― Ⓓⓡ. (Johnny Fever), Thursday, 30 December 2021 04:59 (two years ago) link
VG not liking Ratt, I'm genuinely hurt.
― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Thursday, 30 December 2021 05:29 (two years ago) link
also anyone who likes hair metal listen to Vain - "No Respect", imo a lost classic of the genre
― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Thursday, 30 December 2021 05:30 (two years ago) link
xpost sorry dude, this is where i leave u
― terminators of endearment (VegemiteGrrl), Thursday, 30 December 2021 05:39 (two years ago) link
fare the well
― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Thursday, 30 December 2021 05:50 (two years ago) link
thee lol
fare thee lol
― terminators of endearment (VegemiteGrrl), Thursday, 30 December 2021 06:17 (two years ago) link
but: i will rejoin you on Vain - thx for the rec, they are p good!!
― terminators of endearment (VegemiteGrrl), Thursday, 30 December 2021 06:20 (two years ago) link
Pretty surprised by the anti ratt chat in here i thought they were like the “cool” hair metal group to like?
― Spottie, Thursday, 30 December 2021 06:23 (two years ago) link
everyone likes them except me and neanderthal. but the record clearly shows that they suck & everyone is wrong :D
― terminators of endearment (VegemiteGrrl), Thursday, 30 December 2021 07:26 (two years ago) link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBYa2xGDAQs
I didn't realise Ratt were on the Point Break soundtrack!
The vocals actually remind me of Dave Mustaine at certain points.
― charlie rex, Thursday, 30 December 2021 10:43 (two years ago) link
Those first two Ratt albums are close to flawless! Dancin' Undercover shows some cracks but has some phenomenal, original moments. They started to sound cookie cutter after that. To be honest, "Way Cool Jr." is where they lost me.
― A. Begrand, Thursday, 30 December 2021 12:14 (two years ago) link