boundaries

i'm still mad at my parents for making me hug relatives i didn't care about

I realized after posting that I have much more complicated thoughts about my own relationship with boundaries than I relayed in my post. I withheld them bc…lol boundaries. It’s a fraught topic for me and has been as long as I can remember. I’m not ready to get into it publicly so I shouldn’t have posted.
I’m still mad at my parents too fwiw.

I mean ffs the unspoken belief in children as property without agency is still so widespread

I would prefer to live in a world where my neighbour having children didn't impact on me. But i think that is true with a lot of things.
LIke also seating arrangements on buses back from airports where a family freaks out because i don't like their kid continually kicking the seat I'm in which i picked because i had more legroom since the emergency exit was in front of it.
Or the idiots pushing prams and pushchairs around teh park here . One path that's like 2metres wide or something . So there is space for 2 people to walk by in different directions when necessary. & then I get a bunch of women with prams taking up one sid eof teh path and one idiot walking down the other side. I'm now wondering how total;ly racist taht idea was. like any black person walking in their direction needed to be dealt with instead of them recognising other people use the park.
Or a couple of days ago a father pushing a kid on a wheeled something, possibly horse . he's looking at a football match going on on the park the path's next to and not watching where he's pushing things so the wheeled thing veers right across teh path. I stop way before him because i can see taht he's doing that. I say Excuse me and he doesn't even seem to cop on. NOt sure if taht was the distance or just ignorance. I had stopped way before him because i saw what he was doing. But really one path so should be watching what he's doing. Not my kid and it is my legs that they would have been shoved into.
Ex-gf has a major issue with people not watching where they're going because looking at phones which I definitely share. BUt she makes a vocal thing of it when we're walking around together.

Very badly designed layout of this building. 2 apartments on the top of 4 flights of stairs. The other door is right at the top of the stairs . Ignorant shits who live there decided when they move din taht the bin arrangements didn't suit them so they would just dump rubbish outside their door which I had to walk over. PLus the guy there started leaving his bike on a narrow landing that one really needed all of to navigate.
THis is the same pair who continually leave the street door unlocked despite the landlord having told them not to. & the wife there who i serioulsy wonder what the deal is with and after reading Caste wonder if that is the issue. But I'm not lower caste tahn a delusional idiot who likes to throw lit cigarettes at people or is stupid enough to go out without a key then blame the othe rperson living there if she can't get back into the building. Got this revolting note from this headcase 5 years ago askjing if i was mad cos she had to go to th etrouble of getting her husband from work. I mean I wonder what the story is on boundaries there. like white polish headcase views hers to be sacred and mine to be non existent.
& then earlier thsi year she decidees I'm not allowed to have a paper delivered for some reason. I had had the thing delivered for years before tehy arrived. & she just decides taht if i didn't go down until it suited me to do so it was up to her to dispose of the thing.
Also she messed around with my mail for no good reason , brought a letter addressed to me up and tehn didn't think it suite dher to take it back down and put it back where she got it froml. I found it propped up againsta back wall on the ground floor after it had floated back down there. Annoying?
& then she called teh police on me twice for no good reason once because I was annoyed she was gaslighting me over the thing with the paper. After which I get attacked buy the husband. Standing outside my door threatening me which I should have told the police when tehy arrived.
Instead of which I had to put up with hi eavesdropping as i talked to teh police and getting annoyed taht I pointed out I was the victim. Oh & during which he started going on about me crossing a line, like he had any recognition of line. I just think racist idiot.

Further to that i suspect they are anti vaxxers and she has insisted on standing at the top of teh stairs smoking throughout the pandemic. has absolutely no idea of social distancing which is impossible if she is standing there. hate that i think it's a common thing, an idiot standing at the bottleneck point of a path or corridor or whatever so it is impossible to keep any distance from them. I guess the main thrust of the thing is more about keeping that distance for any length of time but still seems so totally ignorant to do so.

& this idiot woman is working behind the food counter of teh locaol convenience store. Do hope that does mean she was forced to get a jab but really since she does seem to be one of the bolshier idiots I've ever met I do wonder.

2022 resolution to not beef except with alphie

fin

― imago, Wednesday, 29 December 2021 bookmarkflaglink

You will break this because you are a dick.

Navigating boundaries with some couples can be tricky. In my family I have a sister who I feel I used to know, but now talks in terms of 'we like this/we believe/we hate x, we're doing x' to such an extent that I don't feel I even know her. Every text or message from her feels like a press statement issued on behalf of her and her husband.

Having a conversation or getting her genuine views seems impossible.

during a family dinner outing my older brother casually mentioned he was thinking about buying a motorcycle. my mom gasped 'but i'd be so worried about you!'. my brother calmly turned towards her and said 'i'm trying to think of a nice way to say that is not my problem.'. i learned a lot right then and it helped steer the next few years of my life

sorry misedited the first text I sent today.
My problem with teh women with prams was, 1 pram takes up half teh path. There were like 3 prams in a row and one of their group was pushing a pram down the other side of the same path = entire path space taken up by the one group of people with nowhere to walk for anybody else without them walking on muddy grass. & it seemed intentional. Which is like mindless.
Path is there for all of public. I've also been in this area longer tahn a lot of people. I remember that park as wasteland which it was for the first couple of years i was living here.

JUst like bums me out like.

& i do reada lot of books like caste and see my past experiences reflected in ways i probably should have seen at the time. Not just thought this is a bit unjust, how pushy. Or maybe taht is what you do wind up with anyway. Unless you can get some leverage in teh moment to stop it happening or find a way to find it less annoying . & i think you just wind up thinkingthat privileged people are scum anyway unless they actively work against taking as much advantage of it or at least spread the leverage around to those marginalised etc

i can see what gyac means about the dog thing lol

but the conflict avoidant thing can be rough to deal with as someone who is instinctively more of a "let's just get everything out in the open and resolve things with goodwill and respect" person. ... like the thing where some people will tell "you" that they are not upset or that your behavior is "fine" and then flash forward to months or years later and it turns out they were upset! It wasn't fine! And then the "moat of alligators" seems like a very reasonable approach tbh.

I feel like a lot of relationship problems (including romantic, family, friends, professional) are based on differences regarding approaches to conflict. Then throw in unequal power dynamics, and things can be super toxic (especially for the person/people who are already less powerful due to gender, age, race, etc.). Yeah, this is somewhat contradictory to the first paragraph I wrote. There is definitely a tendency for people who are the "less powerful" ones or even just had formative experiences as a child with a parent where they were "less powerful" ... for people to be conflict avoidant and not communicate that they do/did feel harmed by another's behavior.

Conflict avoidance is a bear to surmount when you're raised in an environment filled to the brim with toxic conflict and you subsequently come to assess all conflict as toxic. And even fully understanding that that's a fucked perspective doesn't instantly unfuck the wiring. It's apparently just a lifelong process of unfucking. I mean, hats off to anyone who has it licked but I for one still have a long row to hoe.

my brother calmly turned towards her and said 'i'm trying to think of a nice way to say that is not my problem.'

That's brilliant. I've tried to express similar in the past, but it came out much much less graciously.

Like, worrying over does not equal caring about someone. Makes me think of the bit in "Hamlet 2" where the one girl learns of something bad happening to someone and her immediate reaction is "why is this happening to me???"

A fantastic line, genuinely think of it all the time

That's brilliant. I've tried to express similar in the past, but it came out much much less graciously.

i think he was only able to utter it thanks to therapy, but it's been very instructive esp when it comes to dealing with my very well meaning and frankly sweet + nice parents. but you still have to, not TELL them, but *suggest* they fuck off now and then. it's a good ability. plus 150 XP any time you scorn your aging parents

I wish I'd had that line to hand 30 years ago

a friend today told me they can't use their laundry machine cos she is in a unit next to the main unit, and the main unit is occupied by someone who tested positive for COVID.

she needed to do it this afternoon before her shift. I suggested a laundromat and she got snippy and said "why are you telling me to go to a laundromat? why aren't you letting me wash clothes at your place?"

uh, because my mother is in the midst of a huge load of laundry that won't be done for hours. otherwise I would have.

I offer to help all of the time, this particular time it wasn't really convenient, mom would have to take out scores of wet clothes and wait hours to dry them.

Have you learned something from not making other people’s problem your problem from this incident?

is this friend someone who you are currently having sex with or would like to have sex with if living situations were different?

Sorry if that question is crass, but it is a factor in setting/maintaining boundaries imo and lol ime

I suggested a laundromat and she got snippy and said "why are you telling me to go to a laundromat? why aren't you letting me wash clothes at your place?"

Not sure this is a boundary issue as much as poor communication. She’d have done better to ask directly on the first place rather than hinting. And the answer sounds a bit brusque.

But it’s urgent and key that we know the details of the sexual relationship status ( and intentions )of all your friends and acquaintances.

xp she sounds like a dose tbqh, someone getting brusque over your own needs coming first like that = their problem, not yours

gyac otm

Seconded. Feel like the thread should be called Boundaries: Why are they so bad and hated difficult?

The thread title is fine, you can discuss your inability to keep boundaries, everyone has had this difficulty at some point usually.

It's a work in progress.

I divide all my friends into “would smash” and “uggo” so I can set the proper boundaries. Simple as.

A fine, time-honored approach.

you only have two categories?!

Really glad the thread has turned into this

i was merely trying to think of any reason why this would not be a clear cut "not my problem" situation, and sexual interest is the only thing I came up with ... sorry.

i will get me coat ...

to question above, can't really say I learned anything if I keep doing the same thing over and over, can I?

bullying and intimidation through formative years led me to be a doormat, I made gains in the opposite direction in my early 30s, but stress and declining self-esteem kind of erased those gains.

at least seeing everybody's reaction that my response wasn't irrational helps because I don't even have that anymore as a center.

Building self esteem for yourself takes a while but when you do it, it lasts longer than external validation IMO and the start of it in my experience is setting your boundaries and making people aware of them - saying no, not putting other peoples needs first, not setting yourself on fire for others to be warm. It’s difficult to do but you can look yourself in the mirror. Good luck with it.

Of course part of that can be learning to recognise that you have boundaries and that you're entitled to them

yeah, external validation is kinda like taking a pain reliever for a chronic problem that needs like, surgery. definitely going to be my biggest goal in 2022 is getting away from that.

Yeah sorry, that’s a hugely important point to make

xp good luck with it, cut them all loose IMO and you will do better for it

i think often, and i'm not necessarily saying this is the case with neanderthal's recent story, often the person who is the 'doormat' gets benefits from the arrangement. like the boundary-crossing party sort of knows what they're doing is wrong, and so in order to keep the arrangement going, there's a material exchange. i'm thinking specifically of the case with my parents. they kept giving me stuff well into my adulthood, and because i already had a hard time becoming an independent adult, it kept me dependent and in the boundary-crossing relationship for much too long.

i think it's worth reflecting on what you might be getting out of relationships where you seem to be the one whose boundaries are crossed. there are needs there, but you aren't meeting them this way.

That’s a great post map and so fully agree

often the person who is the 'doormat' gets benefits from the arrangement. like the boundary-crossing party sort of knows what they're doing is wrong, and so in order to keep the arrangement going, there's a material exchange.

yeah, and this scenario is something that can be considered normal in a professional context. Like, if you work in a service profession, there's the classic difficult customer who gives you a big tip. And part of me wants to say, that's okay, if that's just your job and you can shrug it off at the end of the day. However, it shouldn't extend the same way into your personal life.

I think I tend towards the moat of alligators, and so an abundance of boundaries (qualitative not quantative, its not like a list just a state of mind) can be my disfunction. Where I try to address this mostly is with other people who I have to realise are warmer and more open in their natural temperament than me. So the proper and loving thing to do is to warm up.
I guess I realise I act as if there is a simple equation between: boundaries = cold, absence of boundaries = warm. I know I am simplifying something there, but my battle is from coldness to warmth, not the other way around. That is a product of me living within mostly stable familial and personal relationships, so I have the freedom to strive towards warmth without too much fear of nasty punches. Anyone have any experience of productively reducing some boundaries: how/andwhy?
My wife is the other way around which is very good. She could do with more boundaries and I need to open up more. I think we have significantly helped each other out.

my battle is from coldness to warmth, not the other way around. That is a product of me living within mostly stable familial and personal relationships, so I have the freedom to strive towards warmth without too much fear of nasty punches.

yep, that's my background as well, especially in terms of family stuff. I set boundaries with my family from a ... fairly young age, actually.

I was texting with my younger cousin a month or so ago about why I wasn't a flower girl at her parents wedding. I was 6 or 7 when her parents got married, so, perfect flower girl age. My aunt asked her sister, my mom, whether I would be a flower girl. My mom said yes. No one asked me if I wanted to be a flower girl. ... This goes back to the child as property topic.... I don't remember when my mother informed me about my flower girl role, but I think it wasn't that far in advance of the wedding (which I think was expedited due to my aunt's pregnancy ... I don't think she was secretive about the fact she was pregnant, she just didn't want to be visibly pregnant in the pictures). And I was offended that I wasn't asked if I wanted to be a flower girl. Yeah, it was kinda bratty. But I felt like I deserved the same respect an adult would receive about something like that. ... So I said no. Not gonna do it. I don't remember how long my mother and I argued about this, but it was long enough so that she realized that I was not going to back down without some serious disciplinary escalation. And my mother decided that it wasn't worth it. (There would be plenty of other things where she decided it was worth disciplinary escalation, but not this one.) So, fortunately, my uncle-to-be had a 3 year old niece who was not opposed to being a flower girl, so they had the one flower girl, and that's just the way it was, and I don't think anyone bore any real resentment about it.

I was the same, I was a terror at school because I refused to be treated any less than an adult would wrt respect. Not so much at home because my parents did treat me with respect from as young as I can remember and I sincerely love them for it. Even though I am very strong on not treating kids as property, I've realised later in life that brattiness is definitely real and good parenting doesn't just ignore it wholesale. Sounds like your mum was good at picking her battles though.
I don't know why certain kids are better at standing their ground than others? Do you think you got it from your parents? Mine were crazy strict on never ever lying to us (they didn't even mention Santa Claus as kids), strong personalities that valued integrity highly.

I don't know why certain kids are better at standing their ground than others? Do you think you got it from your parents?

Well, first off, my parents were/are mentally stable and had no substance abuse problems and there wasn't any domestic violence between them. Viewing my parents as reasonable and safe was definitely a key aspect for my assertiveness, I'm sure. Though there was definite strictness when it came to other adults and being "in public" ... I think it instilled in me the sense that I can only be "myself" with people who loved me, and that I had to assume a certain role with everyone else. I probably posted about this in some other thread that both LL and I are on, but, when I was about 8, my grandfather went into politics, and we had to attend a number of social functions as the "warm, loving family" and it was very important that I behave and dress appropriately at those, and of course, smile!

Sarahell yr story made me think about why I’m pretty rabid about my boundaries - I wasn’t allowed any at all, until I left home. My mum stayed at home with my two younger siblings till I was 13 and then I was expected to take over most over the cooking, as well as babysitting after school (I was 7-10yrs older than my sibs), household chores etc. And my parents would loan me out on babysitting duty without asking me. Then I started working 20+hrs p/week from 15-18 on top of that (9hr shifts Saturday and Sunday, a 4hr shift on a weekday, plus 9hr shifts every statutory holiday). I honestly felt burnt out by the time I got to college.

Now I don’t do any-fucking-thing I don’t want to. If I feel any type of emotional pressure or manipulation in a friendship I’m out. If you have any kind of expectations of my time and energy, we’re not gonna be friends.

I think I got my first real taste of boundary setting when at 21 I realized I didn’t actually have to keep up a relationship with my asshole older brother (9yrs older). I didn’t even say anything - I just ghosted him after a particularly bad incident where he said some really cruel shit to me. It’s been 20yrs and I’ve literally said 10 words to him (only bc my mum tried to violate my boundary after I’d clearly stated it and tricked me - jokes on her tho bc it was so awkward for everyone that she hasn’t tried it again). As far as I know he’s never asked anyone why I cut ties and he’s never tried to initiate contact with me (which says a lot about the state of things as they were).

Since then I’ve been pretty fuckin slapdash with cutting off friends and family, tbh. Like, I could probably do with being a bit more forgiving but I consider the fact I’m still in contact with my shit parents is about as much grace as I have to give in this lifetime.

It bugs me that I have so little control over my environment that I am stuck with neighbours I'd rather not know exist.
That and having the shared space between me and where things delivered to me are delivered , letters, papers etc. I once had mail at least coming in through teh door of teh flat until it was found that fire regulations hadn't been complied with and they had to replace teh doors without letterboxes.
I think I actually may have been advised to take the flat taht didn't open onto the top of the stairs but in doing so I opened myself to have some mindless idiot decide that they owned taht space at teh top of teh stairs and could block me in by parking bikes in the way or leaving rubbish there.
I think those may be criteria one has to be aware of when choosing a space. & wish I could choose my neighbours but you don't really get that choice do you. You just expect people to recognise borders and shared spaces and things.

you don't really get that choice do you. You just expect people to recognise borders and shared spaces and things.

*sigh* yeah

Like, I could probably do with being a bit more forgiving but I consider the fact I’m still in contact with my shit parents is about as much grace as I have to give in this lifetime.

this made me lmao, for real