boundaries

I built such an impenetrable boundary between me and my biological dad that I wouldn't even visit him when he was dying of throat cancer because fuck it lol I was watching a 2nd leg playoff game in the pub. My mum didn't put any pressure on me to visit him but did suggest I might regret it when he's gone, but I didn't. I don't know if this is an interpretation of boundaries in the spirit of this thread, but sometimes I believe they are often a healthy way of avoiding unnecessary conflict and unhappiness because there is already plenty enough of that shit to go around.

at my old job I would have to deal with kids a lot. One of my methods for building rapport and trust before what can seem scary to kids is to offer a high-five, and ask some questions about school or anything they had with them eg what games were they playing on the DS. But any kid has the right to say "I don't want a high-five" or not answer questions from a stranger, and that's fine, it doesn't bother me: ultimately my goal was to make the experience easy and pleasant for the kid where possible.

The amount of parents and grandparents who would chastise their kids for not wanting to do a high-five was unreal. I would instantly say "it's up to them, I don't mind!" and yet they would insist. I can't play along with that because it's not fair to anyone. The way we teach kids about consent and permission can be so unreal - you must go high-five the stranger in the shop, or hug your smelly uncle, or play with the neighbourhood kid who pulls your hair... and then we wonder why people struggle to say No at the moment necessary.

Huge otm

Shit dads can fuck off, even if they're dead. And in my experience you don't regret putting that boundary in place (in my situation I am glad I met up with him once before he died but also glad I didn't try to do so more frequently, fuck that noise). Solidarity to everyone in the shit dead dad crew.

tbf every industry i can think of has godawful work/life boundaries lol

― STOCK FIST-PUMPER BRAD (BradNelson), Wednesday, December 29, 2021 11:23 AM (twenty-three minutes ago)

this is apparently one of the appealing factors of civil service for some people. There are plenty of people employed in bureaucratic government jobs that show up, punch the clock, do their tasks, get a generous amount of flex time and paid time off, and leave on time. for a while when I was growing up, my mom was a mail carrier. She went in, sorted the mail, put it in her vehicle, delivered the mail, dropped off the undeliverables at the post office, went home. People on her mail route did not call her at home. Her supervisor didn't call her on her days off.

I mean ffs the unspoken belief in children as property without agency is still so widespread

xp to boxedjoy absolutely! that was part of the conversation with a childcare worker friend i was having the other day. he was telling me that he thought the reason why so many kids are poorly behaved little shits is that their parents treat them as these accessories who are forced to play a role, rather than human beings with agency that needs to be respected. and they act it out all the time.

Can confirm a good civil service job is sweeet

also certain trades ... like this one contractor my org works with, Tony the plumber ... Tony isn't going to show up whenever we want him to. Tony is going to work during Tony's schedule, and will pass on jobs that he doesn't want to do. While he gets paid to deal with literal shit, Tony seems to have a pleasant work/life balance.

yup, much improved mental health in a bureaucratic job

i'm still mad at my parents for making me hug relatives i didn't care about

I realized after posting that I have much more complicated thoughts about my own relationship with boundaries than I relayed in my post. I withheld them bc…lol boundaries. It’s a fraught topic for me and has been as long as I can remember. I’m not ready to get into it publicly so I shouldn’t have posted.
I’m still mad at my parents too fwiw.

I mean ffs the unspoken belief in children as property without agency is still so widespread

I would prefer to live in a world where my neighbour having children didn't impact on me. But i think that is true with a lot of things.
LIke also seating arrangements on buses back from airports where a family freaks out because i don't like their kid continually kicking the seat I'm in which i picked because i had more legroom since the emergency exit was in front of it.
Or the idiots pushing prams and pushchairs around teh park here . One path that's like 2metres wide or something . So there is space for 2 people to walk by in different directions when necessary. & then I get a bunch of women with prams taking up one sid eof teh path and one idiot walking down the other side. I'm now wondering how total;ly racist taht idea was. like any black person walking in their direction needed to be dealt with instead of them recognising other people use the park.
Or a couple of days ago a father pushing a kid on a wheeled something, possibly horse . he's looking at a football match going on on the park the path's next to and not watching where he's pushing things so the wheeled thing veers right across teh path. I stop way before him because i can see taht he's doing that. I say Excuse me and he doesn't even seem to cop on. NOt sure if taht was the distance or just ignorance. I had stopped way before him because i saw what he was doing. But really one path so should be watching what he's doing. Not my kid and it is my legs that they would have been shoved into.
Ex-gf has a major issue with people not watching where they're going because looking at phones which I definitely share. BUt she makes a vocal thing of it when we're walking around together.

Very badly designed layout of this building. 2 apartments on the top of 4 flights of stairs. The other door is right at the top of the stairs . Ignorant shits who live there decided when they move din taht the bin arrangements didn't suit them so they would just dump rubbish outside their door which I had to walk over. PLus the guy there started leaving his bike on a narrow landing that one really needed all of to navigate.
THis is the same pair who continually leave the street door unlocked despite the landlord having told them not to. & the wife there who i serioulsy wonder what the deal is with and after reading Caste wonder if that is the issue. But I'm not lower caste tahn a delusional idiot who likes to throw lit cigarettes at people or is stupid enough to go out without a key then blame the othe rperson living there if she can't get back into the building. Got this revolting note from this headcase 5 years ago askjing if i was mad cos she had to go to th etrouble of getting her husband from work. I mean I wonder what the story is on boundaries there. like white polish headcase views hers to be sacred and mine to be non existent.
& then earlier thsi year she decidees I'm not allowed to have a paper delivered for some reason. I had had the thing delivered for years before tehy arrived. & she just decides taht if i didn't go down until it suited me to do so it was up to her to dispose of the thing.
Also she messed around with my mail for no good reason , brought a letter addressed to me up and tehn didn't think it suite dher to take it back down and put it back where she got it froml. I found it propped up againsta back wall on the ground floor after it had floated back down there. Annoying?
& then she called teh police on me twice for no good reason once because I was annoyed she was gaslighting me over the thing with the paper. After which I get attacked buy the husband. Standing outside my door threatening me which I should have told the police when tehy arrived.
Instead of which I had to put up with hi eavesdropping as i talked to teh police and getting annoyed taht I pointed out I was the victim. Oh & during which he started going on about me crossing a line, like he had any recognition of line. I just think racist idiot.

Further to that i suspect they are anti vaxxers and she has insisted on standing at the top of teh stairs smoking throughout the pandemic. has absolutely no idea of social distancing which is impossible if she is standing there. hate that i think it's a common thing, an idiot standing at the bottleneck point of a path or corridor or whatever so it is impossible to keep any distance from them. I guess the main thrust of the thing is more about keeping that distance for any length of time but still seems so totally ignorant to do so.

& this idiot woman is working behind the food counter of teh locaol convenience store. Do hope that does mean she was forced to get a jab but really since she does seem to be one of the bolshier idiots I've ever met I do wonder.

2022 resolution to not beef except with alphie

fin

― imago, Wednesday, 29 December 2021 bookmarkflaglink

You will break this because you are a dick.

Navigating boundaries with some couples can be tricky. In my family I have a sister who I feel I used to know, but now talks in terms of 'we like this/we believe/we hate x, we're doing x' to such an extent that I don't feel I even know her. Every text or message from her feels like a press statement issued on behalf of her and her husband.

Having a conversation or getting her genuine views seems impossible.

during a family dinner outing my older brother casually mentioned he was thinking about buying a motorcycle. my mom gasped 'but i'd be so worried about you!'. my brother calmly turned towards her and said 'i'm trying to think of a nice way to say that is not my problem.'. i learned a lot right then and it helped steer the next few years of my life

sorry misedited the first text I sent today.
My problem with teh women with prams was, 1 pram takes up half teh path. There were like 3 prams in a row and one of their group was pushing a pram down the other side of the same path = entire path space taken up by the one group of people with nowhere to walk for anybody else without them walking on muddy grass. & it seemed intentional. Which is like mindless.
Path is there for all of public. I've also been in this area longer tahn a lot of people. I remember that park as wasteland which it was for the first couple of years i was living here.

JUst like bums me out like.

& i do reada lot of books like caste and see my past experiences reflected in ways i probably should have seen at the time. Not just thought this is a bit unjust, how pushy. Or maybe taht is what you do wind up with anyway. Unless you can get some leverage in teh moment to stop it happening or find a way to find it less annoying . & i think you just wind up thinkingthat privileged people are scum anyway unless they actively work against taking as much advantage of it or at least spread the leverage around to those marginalised etc

i can see what gyac means about the dog thing lol

but the conflict avoidant thing can be rough to deal with as someone who is instinctively more of a "let's just get everything out in the open and resolve things with goodwill and respect" person. ... like the thing where some people will tell "you" that they are not upset or that your behavior is "fine" and then flash forward to months or years later and it turns out they were upset! It wasn't fine! And then the "moat of alligators" seems like a very reasonable approach tbh.

I feel like a lot of relationship problems (including romantic, family, friends, professional) are based on differences regarding approaches to conflict. Then throw in unequal power dynamics, and things can be super toxic (especially for the person/people who are already less powerful due to gender, age, race, etc.). Yeah, this is somewhat contradictory to the first paragraph I wrote. There is definitely a tendency for people who are the "less powerful" ones or even just had formative experiences as a child with a parent where they were "less powerful" ... for people to be conflict avoidant and not communicate that they do/did feel harmed by another's behavior.

Conflict avoidance is a bear to surmount when you're raised in an environment filled to the brim with toxic conflict and you subsequently come to assess all conflict as toxic. And even fully understanding that that's a fucked perspective doesn't instantly unfuck the wiring. It's apparently just a lifelong process of unfucking. I mean, hats off to anyone who has it licked but I for one still have a long row to hoe.

my brother calmly turned towards her and said 'i'm trying to think of a nice way to say that is not my problem.'

That's brilliant. I've tried to express similar in the past, but it came out much much less graciously.

Like, worrying over does not equal caring about someone. Makes me think of the bit in "Hamlet 2" where the one girl learns of something bad happening to someone and her immediate reaction is "why is this happening to me???"

A fantastic line, genuinely think of it all the time

That's brilliant. I've tried to express similar in the past, but it came out much much less graciously.

i think he was only able to utter it thanks to therapy, but it's been very instructive esp when it comes to dealing with my very well meaning and frankly sweet + nice parents. but you still have to, not TELL them, but *suggest* they fuck off now and then. it's a good ability. plus 150 XP any time you scorn your aging parents

I wish I'd had that line to hand 30 years ago

a friend today told me they can't use their laundry machine cos she is in a unit next to the main unit, and the main unit is occupied by someone who tested positive for COVID.

she needed to do it this afternoon before her shift. I suggested a laundromat and she got snippy and said "why are you telling me to go to a laundromat? why aren't you letting me wash clothes at your place?"

uh, because my mother is in the midst of a huge load of laundry that won't be done for hours. otherwise I would have.

I offer to help all of the time, this particular time it wasn't really convenient, mom would have to take out scores of wet clothes and wait hours to dry them.

Have you learned something from not making other people’s problem your problem from this incident?

is this friend someone who you are currently having sex with or would like to have sex with if living situations were different?

Sorry if that question is crass, but it is a factor in setting/maintaining boundaries imo and lol ime

I suggested a laundromat and she got snippy and said "why are you telling me to go to a laundromat? why aren't you letting me wash clothes at your place?"

Not sure this is a boundary issue as much as poor communication. She’d have done better to ask directly on the first place rather than hinting. And the answer sounds a bit brusque.

But it’s urgent and key that we know the details of the sexual relationship status ( and intentions )of all your friends and acquaintances.

xp she sounds like a dose tbqh, someone getting brusque over your own needs coming first like that = their problem, not yours

gyac otm

Seconded. Feel like the thread should be called Boundaries: Why are they so bad and hated difficult?

The thread title is fine, you can discuss your inability to keep boundaries, everyone has had this difficulty at some point usually.

It's a work in progress.

I divide all my friends into “would smash” and “uggo” so I can set the proper boundaries. Simple as.

A fine, time-honored approach.

you only have two categories?!

Really glad the thread has turned into this

i was merely trying to think of any reason why this would not be a clear cut "not my problem" situation, and sexual interest is the only thing I came up with ... sorry.

i will get me coat ...

to question above, can't really say I learned anything if I keep doing the same thing over and over, can I?

bullying and intimidation through formative years led me to be a doormat, I made gains in the opposite direction in my early 30s, but stress and declining self-esteem kind of erased those gains.

at least seeing everybody's reaction that my response wasn't irrational helps because I don't even have that anymore as a center.

Building self esteem for yourself takes a while but when you do it, it lasts longer than external validation IMO and the start of it in my experience is setting your boundaries and making people aware of them - saying no, not putting other peoples needs first, not setting yourself on fire for others to be warm. It’s difficult to do but you can look yourself in the mirror. Good luck with it.

Of course part of that can be learning to recognise that you have boundaries and that you're entitled to them

yeah, external validation is kinda like taking a pain reliever for a chronic problem that needs like, surgery. definitely going to be my biggest goal in 2022 is getting away from that.

Yeah sorry, that’s a hugely important point to make

xp good luck with it, cut them all loose IMO and you will do better for it

i think often, and i'm not necessarily saying this is the case with neanderthal's recent story, often the person who is the 'doormat' gets benefits from the arrangement. like the boundary-crossing party sort of knows what they're doing is wrong, and so in order to keep the arrangement going, there's a material exchange. i'm thinking specifically of the case with my parents. they kept giving me stuff well into my adulthood, and because i already had a hard time becoming an independent adult, it kept me dependent and in the boundary-crossing relationship for much too long.

i think it's worth reflecting on what you might be getting out of relationships where you seem to be the one whose boundaries are crossed. there are needs there, but you aren't meeting them this way.

I’m so sorry 😞

This is just a thought and may not be helpful. You could ask the courts to appoint a conservator for your mom. It's not as drastic as a full guardianship, but it effectively takes control of her financial matters out of her hands. If you are willing to accept the appointment it's probable the court would do that.

I know it sounds drastic and it is, but it may have reached a point where drastic is the only path by which you can save your mom and yourself from her improvidence and irresponsibility. A lawyer could give you some guidance around the viability of this idea, but with your own financial bind I doubt you'd be eager to take this approach unless it felt utterly necessary. Anyway, good wishes and good luck.

Yeah, that sounds like a mess, Neanderthal - take care of yourself first and foremost. Maybe you can still do a scaled-down mini vacation, but do whatever you need to preserve your sanity

yeah, and honestly man, for your own sake, i just need to say something i have been wanting to say but have held back on:

you do not “owe” your mom anything, especially as it is totally apparent that she is willfully and even maliciously taking advantage of you. move out. you don’t deserve this and she doesn’t deserve you.

I know you’ve mentioned before that she’s asked you to take control of her finances but you felt like she should be responsible - and I agree, but my other advice is to cut her off and I know you can’t do that. Taking over her finances will at least give you control. At this point, it really seems like your only viable option. This stress is killing you and it can’t continue indefinitely. You’ve got put a boundary in place that actually works, and what you have currently is not working at all. A real boundary is something that you have complete control of - telling your mum she can’t keep doing this… or what? You’ll let her become homeless or starve or whatever other consequences she’ll have to face as a result of her own lack of accountability or care for your wellbeing? Realistically, you would never be able to let that happen. If you are in control of her finances than she can’t spend money she doesn’t have.

I’m also concerned about the gambling addiction. Her financial demands on you may have triggered a relapse but they aren’t what’s actually responsible for the addiction itself. I would suggest you ask yourself if her putting you in a position where you tell yourself that gambling feels like a desperate attempt to regain footing is actually true or a way to justify the gambling. As long as your mum is burning through your money you have a reason to act out in really risky ways that feed your addiction. I’m not being harsh to be an asshole - I just want you to see your situation as clearly as possible so you can make decisions that work for YOU.

I know this is an incredibly hard situation - your parents have put this burden on you your whole life, I can’t imagine what that’s like or what effect it’s had. Financial stress literally kills people and I don’t want to see that happen to you. You’re a good guy and you have a good heart.

<3