Sonic Youth: Classic or Dud/S&D?

I first saw them in St. Louis, summer 2003. They opened with "Peace Attack" and I remember thinking it was the most beautiful thing they had ever done. I had to wait another year to hear the studio version on Sonic Nurse and it did not disappoint. The rest of the set was basically Murray Street plus the hits, an ideal situation imo.

Where was that in St. Louis? I saw them once, around the same time, in St. Louis, but can remember none of the details.

tried getting into their 2002 central park summerstage show on standby but didn't get in

I was at that show, the only time I've ever seen them. I remember mostly the "Murray Street" songs and their kids running around on the stage.

Archival release coming out on Three Lobed:

https://threelobed.bandcamp.com/album/in-out-in-2

More on what's up:

Over a decade ago it was a crazy ask to see if they wanted to participate in a TLR box set and it was crazier still when the response came back “yes”. The material that they contributed to the "Not The Spaces…" set blew me away upon first listen and continues to do so today. About 2 years ago I felt that those songs demanded recontextualization, to be pulled off the virtual shelf and placed back into circulation. The fire and vitality within those tracks that was apparent in 2011 somehow burned even more intensely in 2022.

Welcome "In/Out/In", a sort of cousin to both "The Destroyed Room" and the SYR series in that it consists of primarily instrumental tracks that were cosmically meant to live together. Calling out such hallowed tracts is not an act that is taken lightly. "In/Out/In" takes the tracks from that 2011 set and couples them with three additional like-minded cuts from the band's 2000-2010 phase, all never previously released physically. Be it the closet mix choogle of “Basement Contender”, the rhythmic Gordon/Shelley showcase of “In & Out”, the spiraling guitar grind of “Machine”, the expansively exploratory “Social Static” or the gloriously ascendant white-hot rocket ride of “Out & In,” there’s something here for every flavor of SY head. Taken individually or as a whole, the band’s unmistakable voice shines.

Thurston's EOY list:

Thurston Moore

Thirty killer recordings I had the pleasure to come across in 2021, all new performances from a galaxy of inspired lights. Keep on shinin’, friends!
—Thurston Moore / Sonic Life

1. Seafoam Walls - XVI (Daydream Library LP)
2. Xopher Davidson - Lux Perpetua (Daydream Library LP)
3. Wobbly - Popular Monitress (Hausu Mountain cassette)
4. Farida Amadou & Pavel Tchikov - Mal De Terre (Trouble In Mind cassette)
5. Luke Stewart - Works For Electric Bass Guitar (Triptickstapes cassette)
6. Ana da Silva & DJ Mooncup - Shouting Out Loud (Noods Radio cassette)
7. Joseph Nechvatal - Selected Sound Works (1981-2021) (Pentiments cassette)
8. Wharton Tiers - Wharton’s Expanding Jazz Band (self released digital)
9. Moor Mother - Circuit City (Black Quantum Futurism LP w/ Playbill)
10. Michael R. Bernstein - Blind In Sight (self released cassette)
11. Marshall Trammell & Aaron Turner - Experimental Love I & II (Sige cassette)
12. Jaimie Branch - Fly Or Die Live (International Anthem 2XLP)
13. Twig Harper - Classical Electronics (Radical Documents cassette)
14. Ava Mendoza - New Spells (Relative Pitch cassette)
15. Michael Morley - Electric Guitar (Radical Documents cassette)
16. Gerald Cleaver - Griots - (Positive Elevation LP)
17. Title TK - Metallic TK (self released cassette)
18. Sophie Cooper - Goodbye Gemini (Borley Rectory cassette)
19. Co-ed - s/t (Sludgepeople cassette)
20. Gergesenes - Exorcism of the Gerasene Demoniac (Banner Of Blood cassette)
21. Orphan Fairytale - Titania Moon (Ultra Eczema LP)
22. Joe Morris & Damon Smith - Gusts Against Particles (Open Systems LP)
23. The Bohman Brothers - In Their 70s (Fort Evil Fruit cassette)
24. Natalie Beridze - Mapping Debris (Monika Enterprise cassette)
25. Tasos Stamou & Alan Wilkinson - Whenever (Ikuisuus cassette)
26. Irons - Unto The Kingdom (self released digital)
27. Alan Braufman & Cooper-Moore - Live at WKCR May 22, 1972 (Valley Of Search 12”)
28. Nihilist Spasm Band - Nothing Is Hard To Do (But We Try) (We Are Busy Bodies 7”)
29. Gaahls WYRD - The Humming Mountain (Season Of Mist 10”)
30. White People Killed Them - (Sige LP)

lol @ the top two spots going to his own label's releases, but I have read others enthusing about that Seafoam Walls album.

Pre-ordered that new archival release right away, looking forward to it!

good list!

I saw them open for Pearl Jam in 2000 and don't remember a damn thing about their performance. To be fair, I was in the cheap seats.

Liner notes by tylerw? TAKE MY MONEY

Lol, otm

same

also this tracklist looks killer

The sole track with O'Rourke on the new release (which has been released before as part of a box set as stated in the liner notes) is a slow, brooding and instrumental early version of "Pattern Recognition".

Liner notes by tylerw? TAKE MY MONEY
ha, brian turner (ex WFMU) actually wrote the liners, I wrote the "obi-essay" that comes with the LP. a tiny thing, but believe me, 15-year-old me is over the moon about it.

Either way, that's awesome! I might just have to get back into buying more vinyl just for your obi-strip essays! I did get the one that came with the Sunburned Hand of the Man vinyl.

they're kind of glorified hype stickers, but they are cool!

When I die will you write the obi obit for my posthumous best of

obi is a big nytimes crossword answer. japanese belt. It always bums me that I forget.

Am 100% hiring Tyler to write bumf first my next record. Only stipulation: must be scrupulously honest.

“Eh, this stuff is alright for a bunch of fiftyish hobbyists from the prairies. You could do worse. But you’ll probably forget it in a week, so why bother?”

i will write everyone's obis, just call me obi-wan.

Agree to that so quickly

Where was that in St. Louis? I saw them once, around the same time, in St. Louis, but can remember none of the details.

― Karl Malone, Thursday, December 23, 2021 4:37 PM (one month ago) bookmarkflaglink

Sorry, just saw this now. It was at the Pageant.

https://i.imgur.com/HLEUG5Q.png

https://i.imgur.com/xmH7Io8.png

https://i.imgur.com/qqfuGBS.png

In/Out/In showed up yesterday, only two tracks in so far but I <3 having "new" Sonic Youth in my life.

I don't think I've listened to "Rather Ripped" since it came out, for no particular reason other than I just don't put on Sonic Youth that much. But the thing that's striking me right now is just how good the songwriting is. Of course the band will always be best known for its sound, for the noise and whatnot, which (misleadingly) can make the songwriting seem an almost underrated afterthought. But it's just so tuneful and melodic, which is not where teenaged me in the late '80s and '90s ever would have imagined the band ending up.

But I think ever since the ‘80s people have underestimated how much Sonic Youth know about chord theory and how much they’re aware of alternate tunings and what effect they have

I honestly don't know how much the band knows about theory (alternate tunings, sure), but regardless, as countless acts have demonstrated, knowing chords and music theory and the like does not necessarily translate to good songwriting. More often than not it it results in music that mostly annoyingly calls attention to to all the chords and music theory.

RR is a big favorite and (imo) should’ve been their last studio LP - it would’ve been a great note to go out on. But, of course, The Eternal happened.

The Eternal's a good record too. But there's something brilliantly perverse about how their final record for Geffen was also perhaps their most 'pop' and accessible.

If you'd like to see the Sonic Youth albums ranked incorrectly...

https://www.avclub.com/every-sonic-youth-album-ranked-ranked-worst-to-best-1848612410

As a Goo aficionado, I'm okay with those rankings, actually.

I guess what I was saying was, people always - ALWAYS - since the beginning thought Sonic Youth were just making noise on their guitars, when in fact they knew very well what they were doing, It had a foundation in music theory (the old saw that you gotta know the rules to break the rules)

More often than not it it results in music that mostly annoyingly calls attention to to all the chords and music theory.

Strongly disagree, although I also don't know how much Thurston and Lee know about 'standard' music theory. It's definitely evident that they were methodical and skilled with the particular rows they furrowed and had obv worked with Branca before recording. David Heetderks has published analyses of Sonic Youth songs that do show there are some pretty sophisticated things going on, harmonically.

I think the Beackbeat soundtrack might be the one example i can think of TM playing fairly straight versions of non-Sonic Youth material (where he acquitted himself well enough).

Sonic Nurse, Rather Ripped, and The Eternal are a helluva way to bow out.

Strongly disagree

Oh, I wasn't talking about SY when I said "more often than not it it results in music that mostly annoyingly calls attention to to all the chords and music theory," I was talking about bands in general. There are definitely sophisticated things going on harmonically, but I think that's because they were methodical and skilled and also good songwriters, not because they were classically trained or whatever. Like, Page Hamilton is trained, iirc, but there's a reason you don't see people ranking Helmet albums. And he's nowhere near the top of the show-off heap, just working in a rock milieu like SY.

Yeah, I got you and we agree about SY. I just don't agree that music theory education is more likely than not to result in empty ostentation. It's just a tool that learners can use in any number of ways. Someone who uses it mainly to call attention to themselves was probably likely to do so with another tool in its absence.

Until this past summer, I let a lot of their work from the past 20 years (or more accurately their last ten years) pass me by. After catching Moore, Shelley and Gordon all perform in recent months, I finally dove into those albums and for the most part found them all enjoyable. They're not necessarily "perfect" and some are better than others, but I was surprised how consistently rewarding their main catalog turned out to be. The earliest stuff isn't quite there for me, but from Bad Moon Rising to the end, virtually every one had something substantial to offer (though NYC Ghosts & Flowers might be merely okay).

NYC Ghosts & Flowers is at worst blah, either the end of a manner or the beginning of a new one.

xp yeah that sounds about right, throw in SYR 1 and 2 and maybe half of 4 to boot

EVOL is way low to me in that list.

I think their tunings are often pretty clever, they play up sounds that are often kinda hard to play in standard like ninth chords or multi-octave drones in a way that you can thrash at them like Johnny Ramone.

There are some neat online covers showing people playing some of the tunes and you can see the fingerings are not crazy hard to hit.

I got a feeling Lee got as much of that stuff from Joni Mitchell (who does similar things) as Branca.

It occurred to me recently that over the last few years I've listened to Washing Machine more than any other album from 1995.

Washing Machine was good. In that list, thought EVOL, A Thousand Leaves, and Murray Street were too low, and Rather Ripped and Experimental Jet Set, Trash and No Star too high, but can't argue with Daydream Nation and Goo as the top two. They were one of the best rock bands of the last 30+ years

It had a foundation in music theory (the old saw that you gotta know the rules to break the rules)

― Josefa

Surely their foundation is more in art and literary theory than music theory. Especially art.

They do call a lot of attention to the proprietary characteristics of a guitar, it's physical or material properties, that whole Hans Hoffman thing of medium distinctions. I dont know that tunings are a primary mode of doing this, but sure- it's not a piano so why should the tuning be fixed?

A Thousand Leaves, and Murray Street were too low

a Thousand Leaves might be their best album!!

And why not retune a piano as well?

can't argue with Daydream Nation and Goo as the top two

lol I would 100% argue with this, but the point is that they made a lot of great records

I mentioned Joe Gore's interview and article on them from the Aug 91 Guitar Player earlier in the thread. Here it is: https://drive.google.com/file/d/18it36EojywZqYd1mbwjQIzAwYpG-ifOq/view?usp=sharing . It addresses most of what we've been talking about. They discuss their (or KG's and LR's) influence from the high-concept art world, as well as the sonic/acoustic ideas they took from Branca/Chatham, and their comparative lack of formal training or theory (though TM says LR was "very studied"). You also get Gore's transcriptions and breakdowns for a bunch of riffs, one of which he also approximates in standard tuning, where it's much harder to play. As earlnash notes, the tunings allow for these more complex harmonies to be played with extremely simple fingerings. The "Cross the Breeze" intro mostly consists of a melody line over a maj7 chord, producing a bunch of varied extensions (maj13, maj9, etc). I could try to upload a Heetderks article if anyone's interested.