Rob Manfred and the Destruction of Baseball (LOCKOUT 2022)

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Mind you, the exclamation points work wonders.

clemenza, Saturday, 11 December 2021 18:36 (two years ago) link

i suppose the way to deal the the peak year issue is to actually play younger players what they’re worth earlier in their careers wait why are you laughing

Tracer Hand, Sunday, 12 December 2021 00:16 (two years ago) link

three weeks pass...

MLB Network has cut ties with insider Ken Rosenthal that is believed to be the end result of acrimony that peaked in the summer of 2020 after Rosenthal criticized commissioner Rob Manfred, The Post has learned.

https://nypost.com/2022/01/03/ken-rosenthal-out-at-mlb-network-over-rob-manfred-criticism/

Andy K, Tuesday, 4 January 2022 00:55 (two years ago) link

Just came to post that--Trump evidently now in charge of MLB.

clemenza, Tuesday, 4 January 2022 01:08 (two years ago) link

that is fucking pathetic

FRAUDULENT STEAKS (The Cursed Return of the Dastardly Thermo Thinwall), Tuesday, 4 January 2022 05:38 (two years ago) link

MLB is full of insecure and vindictive weasels ime

Tracer Hand, Tuesday, 4 January 2022 10:06 (two years ago) link

Wonder what other moves that chump would make if he had even more power.

Andy K, Tuesday, 4 January 2022 15:07 (two years ago) link

Scherzer: Honestly, I believe that because what we’re fighting for is integrity. It’s about how the game is being played and how the rules of the game are affecting the competition of play. It’s obvious that we see teams tanking. I’m not here to sit here and say an owner is an evil person for tanking, because the strategy can work. But we feel the tanking has increased because of the rigid slot values of the draft picks. The amateur draft and the international market have incredible surplus value. That’s why the top picks are so coveted. The only way the CBA allows teams to get those players is by losing. That has become the winning strategy, yet that shouldn’t be a winning strategy in professional sports. That doesn’t sit well with players, and it affects a lot of different markets and guys’ ability to live out their dreams to play baseball. Additionally, when you have that tanking component in there, it also leads to service-time manipulation. As these teams gear up for their window, watching teams manipulate prospects’ clocks is wrong. It’s changing free agency from what it was supposed to be. Free agency’s supposed to be six years, and they’re manipulating it into seven years and that’s not OK in our book. And that’s a work stoppage issue for us. And so, like I said, all the players understand that and we’re willing to fight for that.

https://www.latimes.com/sports/story/2022-01-03/max-scherzer-mlb-lockout-new-cba-dodgers-mets

he also alludes to "the grand bargain" falling apart i.e. underpaying young players and overpaying veterans.. now that owners are less willing to overpay veterans something needs to change on the front end

Tracer Hand, Tuesday, 11 January 2022 00:31 (two years ago) link

I agree with him on manipulating the clock--we saw that happen in Toronto with Vlad (and really, it was hard to argue with management, even though it was maddening to see him stuck down in Buffalo).

Is tanking that prevalent, though? I guess I just don't pay close enough attention to see it. To me, it feels like so many middle-level teams are trying to make moves at the deadline to grab a wild-card spot, at which point anything can happen.

clemenza, Tuesday, 11 January 2022 00:52 (two years ago) link

Is tanking that prevalent, though?

yes

mookieproof, Tuesday, 11 January 2022 01:32 (two years ago) link

what did teams do up until the 90s when only four teams made the playoffs? is this new as far as overall strategy goes? i feel like tanking is not a huge issue if it's also much easier than ever to slip into the playoffs.

FRAUDULENT STEAKS (The Cursed Return of the Dastardly Thermo Thinwall), Tuesday, 11 January 2022 01:50 (two years ago) link

I remember perennial doormats being a bigger problem in the '70s and '80s--and much bigger than that, if you go back a few decades more. Honest question: how many teams haven't been competitive at all the past, say, five seasons? I can think of three or four offhand, at least a couple of which (Detroit, Pittsburgh) come out of a lengthy stretch of success.

clemenza, Tuesday, 11 January 2022 02:09 (two years ago) link

xp in the past there were "fire sales" but i think this degree of tanking started with the cubs and astros.

i don't think it's the worst thing in the world, and i don't think lightly editing the draft process is going to fix it. you can spend money and still tank. spending money would make tanking a lot easier in some ways - we would see more trades where tanking teams take on bad contracts + prospects, we would see teams handing out riskier 1-year deals on FAs in hopes of trading them at the deadline, etc. but owners set the budgets and owners seem to really like the idea of not spending more than $40m for a few years.

, Tuesday, 11 January 2022 02:18 (two years ago) link

i'm realizing i missed a transitional sentence there, but my point is that owners like tanking because it saves them money, not because it gets them high draft picks. if you want to force them to spend money you have to force them to spend money. kevin goldstein has said in various chats of his that one year's budget doesn't affect the next when those budgets are being set; spare money is pocketed, not banked.

, Tuesday, 11 January 2022 02:20 (two years ago) link

I think people are exaggerating the tanking issue, it's true that the Cubs and Astros tanked and then won championships but landing high draft picks isn't enough, you have to develop those players development (which they were great at) and make plenty of other smart roster moves.

The new playoff format discourages tanking (since more teams can be in the mix) but it also discourages spending big money on free agents. The emphasis is on maximizing the number of years you get from your core young players (by manipulating their service time) and then adding spare parts midseason. There is a lot less incentive to spend money during the offseason. Last year's Braves bought low on Rosario and Soler and won the WS. That seems to happen almost every year, the eventual WS winner retools their bullpen and/or their bench with key underpaid players that fill a very specific need.

NoTimeBeforeTime, Tuesday, 11 January 2022 08:31 (two years ago) link

you have to develop those players development

Development is so important I had to mention it twice ...

NoTimeBeforeTime, Tuesday, 11 January 2022 08:43 (two years ago) link

Basically what I'm trying to say--that if a little tanking leads to the WS that the Astros and the Cubs won, I'm okay with that. I wouldn't say the Jays tanked after 2015/2016, but they did kind of write off the next few seasons as they waited for Vlad, Bichette, etc. I didn't mind.

I looked at four teams in the '70s: Cleveland, San Diego, Montreal, and the White Sox. Between them, they finished above .500 six times in 40 seasons; Cleveland won 81 twice, the Padres 84 once, the Expos 95 once ('79), and the White Sox 87 and 90. Every other season was below .500. The Cubs and Mets weren't much better.

Do decade-long stretches of futility like that happen anymore? Maybe they do and I'm oblivious (quite possible).

clemenza, Tuesday, 11 January 2022 16:30 (two years ago) link

honestly – don't get the complaints about by-low free agents either. usually the money is far from humiliating and they're free to get a pay raise in FA the next season if they do well. and from a team perspective, why wouldn't they look for value out there, when the big name free agents become absolute dumpster fires half way into their deals (if not sooner) and it becomes embarrassing for everyone – shleping some grossly overpaid, underperforming vet onto the field every day, blocking a younger player, simply because he's got a massive contract.

xpost

FRAUDULENT STEAKS (The Cursed Return of the Dastardly Thermo Thinwall), Tuesday, 11 January 2022 16:32 (two years ago) link

to clemenza: the pirates are trying for that, it would seem!

FRAUDULENT STEAKS (The Cursed Return of the Dastardly Thermo Thinwall), Tuesday, 11 January 2022 16:32 (two years ago) link

They won 98 games as recently as 2015, but yeah, I guess they'll have to turn it around in the next three years to avoid that.

Ultimately, it all comes down to this:

he also alludes to "the grand bargain" falling apart i.e. underpaying young players and overpaying veterans...now that owners are less willing to overpay veterans something needs to change on the front end

They need to figure out that, or else go back to pretending that 30-year-olds are a great long-term investment.

clemenza, Tuesday, 11 January 2022 16:41 (two years ago) link

(Not that they used to pretend, they actually believed that.)

clemenza, Tuesday, 11 January 2022 16:41 (two years ago) link

i honestly don't know how you protect baseball from agreements both sides entered willingly.

FRAUDULENT STEAKS (The Cursed Return of the Dastardly Thermo Thinwall), Tuesday, 11 January 2022 17:17 (two years ago) link

Also heard MLB’s offer to players today included 14 teams in playoffs

That's arguably players' biggest bargaining chip: owners clearly want expanded playoffs.

— Ben Nicholson-Smith (@bnicholsonsmith) January 13, 2022

mookieproof, Thursday, 13 January 2022 21:51 (two years ago) link

half the majors in the playoffs, we did it! we did it!!

Tracer Hand, Thursday, 13 January 2022 22:01 (two years ago) link

lol that shit works for basketball where an 8-seed often has virtually no chance against a 1 seed but in baseball those sorts of teams win the WS pretty frequently. also seems like this would take all the drama out of the last 2 weeks of the season. I hate it so I'm sure it's gonna happen

frogbs, Thursday, 13 January 2022 22:04 (two years ago) link

And the PA is starting their bargaining at 12 teams. At least make them work for it jfc

, Friday, 14 January 2022 01:17 (two years ago) link

you put 14 (or even 12) teams in the playoffs, suddenly clubs are aiming at 85 wins instead of 95, and free agent spending follows accordingly. also it is my understanding (could be wrong?) that postseason revenue accrues entirely to ownership -- players get paid only for regular season games.

it's an interesting ploy! everyone spends a six-month exhibition season celebrating heritage and fields of dreams and the beloved ballpark experience, then there are six weeks of games that actually matter at some multiple of the price

mookieproof, Friday, 14 January 2022 02:42 (two years ago) link

Players get a share of postseason gate money but none of that sweet TBS money

, Friday, 14 January 2022 02:47 (two years ago) link

everyone spends a six-month exhibition season celebrating heritage and fields of dreams and the beloved ballpark experience

Don't forget the military and the end of racism.

Andy K, Sunday, 16 January 2022 02:19 (two years ago) link

two weeks pass...

This sounds like a decent idea. But, like many US institutions, I’m wondering if there’s something horribly wrong with the mediation services that would make this bullshit?

FRAUDULENT STEAKS (The Cursed Return of the Dastardly Thermo Thinwall), Friday, 4 February 2022 00:39 (two years ago) link

it's at best a PR stunt and at worst a maneuver by the owners to claim they're at an impasse and blunt force their last offer without an agreement (like 1994)

MLB’s push for federal mediation could be ‘win-win’ PR play for owners https://t.co/GKKa4SUcg1

— Evan Drellich (@EvanDrellich) February 4, 2022


This argues for my cynical explanation that MLB was trying to speed up an argument that the parties are at impasse, so it would have additional weapons at its disposal under the law. https://t.co/Rp3XkNAfU2

— (((EugeneFreedman))) (@EugeneFreedman) February 3, 2022

this thread by freedman about it is very good - he is the best person to follow for all CBA talk imo

, Friday, 4 February 2022 06:09 (two years ago) link

MLB’s push for federal mediation could be ‘win-win’ PR play for owners, source says

As one player agent surmised, Major League Baseball’s push for federal mediation in collective bargaining talks is a “win-win” for the commissioner’s office, even if MLB knows the players are unlikely to sign on for the process.

The league is positioning its move as earnest.

“What couldn’t be positive about bringing in an experienced and positive neutral mediator?” said a league source.

Others aren’t convinced.

“If union says no, they win,” the agent said. “If union says yes, they go through this process and burn a couple of weeks, and win.”

If the union says no to mediation — the most likely outcome for a few reasons — then MLB will still have at least a small feather in its cap: it can say that it attempted to use mediators, and the union would not. It’s potentially a way of positioning the players as obstructionists.

Why wouldn’t the players go through with the process? For one thing, they likely fear mediation can involve splitting the baby, to an extent. In the players’ view, the league hasn’t moved much in their direction at all. Splitting it down the middle, or even close to it, then, could inherently benefit management at a time when players are looking for significant changes.

Now, mediation is not binding, which lessens the risk for players. But there’s a PR hit for players if mediators recommend something other than what they are pursuing. And the process would take time as things start to get urgent. The passage of time, some in the industry believe, would also benefit the owners, regardless of what the mediator would recommend.

“Betting on the players getting desperate and cracking the union,” the agent said. “It’s been two months and they haven’t made any progress. They (at MLB) have zero urgency.”

Another agent, though, thinks that if the league is thinking along these lines, it’s making a poor bet.

“Why does MLB win by wasting a few weeks? They are severely underestimating the players’ resolve,” the agent said.

But another major reason players are likely to pass? The parties went through federal mediation with MLB in 1994-95 in a dramatic process, and those on the players’ side roundly ripped the process in 2019 interviews with The Athletic.

“It was a joke. It had no value,” said Don Fehr, head of the MLBPA during the 1994-95 strike. “And there were all kind of agendas at work in the mediation that had nothing to do with the agendas of the parties trying to resolve the dispute.”

Said another top lawyer at the union, Gene Orza: “They came in with what they thought was a halfway proposal, which the owners jumped all over. The owners approved the mediators’ proposal in about a minute and a half.

“The guy virtually eliminated free agency. They just didn’t know what they were doing. That was obvious. They were going to try to split a baby, as if there was one single baby that was going to be split. I went crazy when I heard from one of the mediators.”

The owners didn’t see it that way. Back then, commissioner Rob Manfred was outside counsel at MLB.

“Some historical context is kind of important: Mediators don’t ordinarily recommend solutions. They’re process people,” Manfred said. “They help the parties get through a deal. They don’t like to say, “This is what you should do.” It’s very unusual. So the fact the president asked them to make a recommendation was very unusual.

“And when the recommendation came down, we were not jumping up and down. At least my client wasn’t jumping up and down about the recommendation. We had to convince, and as a group, come to a consensus that the recommendation was acceptable to the clubs. We thought that was a very, very positive step.”

Federal mediation, back in 1994-95, eventually led to the White House getting involved, during the Bill Clinton administration. But because the players thought the mediation process was working in the owners’ favor, the White House’s involvement didn’t move the process along.

“Usually — as a matter of fact without exception, I believe, in the history of American labor relations — what happens is, if the president calls you to the White House after his mediators made a recommendation, he finds a way to make that deal happen,” Manfred said. “Obviously, we were extraordinarily disappointed with the fact that we left the White House with no deal.”

, Friday, 4 February 2022 06:10 (two years ago) link

lol

Rob Manfred says a lot of the criticism/distrust of him that’s been issued publicly is “tactical.” Cites his many years making labor deals. “I’m the same person today I was in 1998 when I took that labor job (at MLB)."

— Evan Drellich (@EvanDrellich) February 10, 2022

mookieproof, Thursday, 10 February 2022 16:35 (two years ago) link

sure

Manfred on if owning a team is lucrative:
"Historically, (the return) is below what you'd expect to get in the stock market."

— Travis Sawchik (@Travis_Sawchik) February 10, 2022

mookieproof, Thursday, 10 February 2022 16:52 (two years ago) link

"Yes, the owners I work for are in fact morons who don't spend their money well"

, Thursday, 10 February 2022 18:09 (two years ago) link

Fxxx Em' all. Let it burn. I hope they don't play a single game this year.

earlnash, Friday, 11 February 2022 01:47 (two years ago) link

Major League Baseball asked for the ability to eliminate hundreds of minor league playing jobs in its latest labor proposal, sources told ESPN. The league would not be allowed to implement the plan until after 2022.

Details, free and unlocked, at ESPN: https://t.co/ZkKNE7LhsG

— Jeff Passan (@JeffPassan) February 15, 2022

mookieproof, Tuesday, 15 February 2022 02:51 (two years ago) link

Manfred is turning out to be a bigger sleazeball than I could have imagined.

NoTimeBeforeTime, Tuesday, 15 February 2022 07:39 (two years ago) link

and we fans will come back because this game has a grip on us.

*sigh*

Well, let's see what's hap -- shit.

@BNightengale
The #MLB and #MLBPA negotiating session is over after just 15 minutes.

Andy K, Thursday, 17 February 2022 18:37 (two years ago) link

Last chance to cancel your MLB.tv sub...

reggae mike love (polyphonic), Sunday, 27 February 2022 19:35 (two years ago) link

Yikes, thanks for the reminder, cancelled. The "reason" field didn't have "Manfred is an asshole" option so I had to go with "other".

Everybody Loves Ramen (WmC), Sunday, 27 February 2022 20:47 (two years ago) link

Associated Press photo taken by Lynne Sladky earlier this afternoon of MLB commissioner Rob Manfred at Roger Dean Stadium, where labor talks are being held. pic.twitter.com/isAzV6P86o

— Michael Silverman (@MikeSilvermanBB) March 1, 2022

mookieproof, Tuesday, 1 March 2022 21:46 (two years ago) link

i'm a casual baseball fan, mostly just the twins but this is really sad to me

i just did a twitter poll but i started to wonder - does the average non-sports fan know the name of ANY major league baseball player? i kinda doubt it

Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Tuesday, 1 March 2022 22:48 (two years ago) link

Good question. I wonder if Derek Jeter (or maybe Ichiro) was the last time you could confidently answer "yes" to that. Mike Trout should be an easy yes, and so should Mookie Betts and Max Scherzer and Clayton Kershaw, and then there's Soto and Tatis and Guerrero and Acuna. But I'm not sure if that's the case.

clemenza, Tuesday, 1 March 2022 23:29 (two years ago) link

Is there any way to stop baseball teams from being owned by groups that actively hate baseball?

FRAUDULENT STEAKS (The Cursed Return of the Dastardly Thermo Thinwall), Wednesday, 2 March 2022 00:00 (two years ago) link

xpost oh sorry I meant active players (I even put Jeter is retired in the question cuz I knew he'd be the one)

Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Wednesday, 2 March 2022 00:33 (two years ago) link

I've never heard of Tatis or Acuna

Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Wednesday, 2 March 2022 00:33 (two years ago) link

This shit sucks. Two shortened seasons in three years? In a sport that’s already finding itself behind the times? I used to have Brewers games on constantly. I don’t even really know who’s on the team anymore.

frogbs, Wednesday, 2 March 2022 00:44 (two years ago) link

ghost runner is a terrible thing to use, because anyone who ever played during recess knows the rules of a ghost runner don't apply here

francisF, Friday, 29 September 2023 19:32 (six months ago) link

lol otm

mookieproof, Friday, 29 September 2023 19:36 (six months ago) link

that's one of ben lindberg's hobbyhorses - the ghost runner already exists and this isn't it.

Its big ball chunky time (Jimmy The Mod Awaits The Return Of His Beloved), Friday, 29 September 2023 19:51 (six months ago) link

Also the runners aren’t deceased.

FRAUDULENT STEAKS (The Cursed Return of the Dastardly Thermo Thinwall), Friday, 29 September 2023 20:43 (six months ago) link

zombie runner is my preferred

Its big ball chunky time (Jimmy The Mod Awaits The Return Of His Beloved), Friday, 29 September 2023 20:46 (six months ago) link

yeah, zombie runner is what makes the most sense if you need a supernatural term

silverfish, Friday, 29 September 2023 20:47 (six months ago) link

the runner that time forgot

WmC, Friday, 29 September 2023 20:51 (six months ago) link

Frankenstein’s baserunner

FRAUDULENT STEAKS (The Cursed Return of the Dastardly Thermo Thinwall), Friday, 29 September 2023 20:58 (six months ago) link

the Rob Zombie runner

felicity, Friday, 29 September 2023 21:40 (six months ago) link


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