EZRA KLEIN v MATT YGLESIAS

Ah yes, police interrupting protests using violence, an uniquely american experience.

― Van Horn Street, Friday, December 10, 2021 8:12 AM (one minute ago) bookmarkflaglink

this argument is not quite as clever as you think, and does fwiw contradict your previous one

The definition of dystopia is that every aspect of society is catastrophically terrible, of course I understand it’s hyperbolic, the point made still sounds like first world privilege crying. I find it’s a description of the US that does not fit my experience with nations in which things are much closer to catastrophically terrible than the US, nor with the US itself.

― Van Horn Street, Friday, December 10, 2021 7:59 AM (sixteen minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

if you understand it then why are you arguing with no one here

pointing out the U.S.'s problems is not first world privilege ffs. NO ONE knows what the tweet was actually about but if it was about being #1 in school shootings or incarceration that would not be "privilege"

that definition of dystopia is such a lame attempt to not engage with what people are saying too lol

our already imperfect democracy is clearly eroding further to the point that we are in obvious danger of becoming a fully authoritarian state

shut up you baby put your clothes in the big expensive drier

I just find the notion insulting to all the people who live in conditions that are much much worse than what the average american get to live, and that happens to be the vast majority of the world. I just think the rethoric is a populist device that is detached from reality (things like quality of life and standards of living are measured, the US is doing very well).

xpost i mean at least a comment about the definition is responsive in a way that "well actually the income/quality of life (whatever that means) is higher than everywhere" is not, but that definition is also so extreme that it would like never be OK to say the word in this context

i'm pretty sure kate aronoff is aware of that and was frustrated about something at 2 a.m., i'm not sure why you haven't considered that

the people saying these things might actually care about the suffering of their fellow humans worldwide, rather than just using them for a dismissive rhetorical device, something to think about

because of course a huge issue with the usa is its responsible for a lot of that suffering

yes, it's dystopic

I don’t think she is the only one using that sort of doom/dystopia rethoric. I just agree with Yglesias that the left shouldn’t engage with that sort of thinking. Any domestic problem in the US is of its own making, most nations on earth don’t have the luxury to solve problems in that way.

Anecdotally the ppl I know who come from the countries that are worst off in terms of living conditions would actually enthusiastically agree with the statement "the UK is a dystopia" because, being mostly undocumented migrants, they have experienced its dystopian elements more than myself or anyone on this thread. Pretty sure that'd be the same for the US.

how dare you use the bad word

https://i.imgur.com/u3hBxgk.png

just glad being ruled by sinister mega corporations is something that only happens in scifi

hey that looks like a useful word to describe many aspects of the american experience

The reason the US feels dystopian is because of the massive disparities between rich and poor and between racialized groups. Appealing to averages misses the point--what's infuriating and depressing about the place is that there is a ton of money sloshing around that could be used to help people (see the just passed defense bill) and that certain classes of people do enjoy civil rights while others do not. That America is not North Korea isn't particularly relevant when considering Black teenagers spending months or years in Rikers without a trial or immigrant detention or etc.

Also, merriam says the "essential" definition of dystopia = "an imaginary place where people are unhappy and usually afraid because they are not treated fairly"; there are parts of the US that are undeniably captured by that description.

I would also say that dealing with the privatized health care system can indeed feel dystopian in a classic literary, Kafkaesque way

sorry bit of an xpost

Any domestic problem in the US is of its own making, most nations on earth don’t have the luxury to solve problems in that way.

― Van Horn Street, Friday, December 10, 2021 8:40 AM (two minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

jolly good ill just get on that then, oh the police seem to be hitting me now, but thats ok its normal no worries im sure well get to the bottom of this in no time

it does feel luxurious to be able to solve these domestic problems that i made all by myself

Also, merriam says the "essential" definition of dystopia = "an imaginary place where people are unhappy and usually afraid because they are not treated fairly"; there are parts of the US that are undeniably captured by that description.

Absolutely, but in my experience unhapiness, fear and injustice are even higher in second and third world countries. Also, the fact that americans itt are mainly talking about problems happening americans society atm and not the specific problems plaguing other nations, as if the barometer was their own culture/nation/society is telling.

We have done a magnificent job in the last century inflicting problems on other nations.

if someone is suffering they shouldnt complain if someone somewhere else is suffering worse, only the most suffering guy can complain, then when he dies its next man up

we need to get this important message to all the people rotting in american jails for selling a crack rock in 1992

yeah i'm wondering when it's appropriate to talk about our own country's problems

sir did you know saudi jails are actually much worse than this now please shut up ok

Saying that the US is not a dystopia is not saying that the US is an utopia.

you are extremely frustrating

Certainly not as much as having to deal with american-centric views 24/7 for a whole life.

Sounds pretty...dystopian

lol i wasnt going to bring up that you were canadian but now that you have well yeah i can understand why you might be annoyed obvs but your arguments in this thread dont go much further than that and are on their merits extremely poor

there's america-centric and there's "on topic." i'd like to live in a less america-centric world too. when i think about how america's *average* standard of living got to be so much higher than everyone else's i feel a little bit sick, tbh.

Sounds pretty...dystopian

― rob, Friday, December 10, 2021 9:14 AM (eight minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

If the sentence was ‘the US sometimes imposes dystopia on other nations’ then yes, I would agree.

and on its own citizens too, good im glad we could all agree on this very obvious truth

Can't really complain about American-centric thinking, 100% no reason for anyone outside the US to have even the most cursory knowledge of a complete non-entity like Matthew Yglesias unless you're already complicit in talking too much about America.

Part of the problem myself ofc

Then almost everything in the world today and in history has been a dystopia. I don’t get the point of the singling out the US.

uh oh lol

The point is that the US propaganda machine continues to successfully spin it as the best of all possible worlds to its own population and the world population at large.

Ok, the thread has convinced me that using the dytopiometer to measure nation-states is a bit pointless, but I am curious VHS: what do you make of a place like Canada whose unarguably high quality of life is based on past and present forms of colonialist extraction both within and without Canada? How would you describe that situation? Dystopia doesn't seem right to me either, but how would you describe a society that achieves such comfort by stealing land, poisoning the atmosphere, exploiting global labour, etc.? There are classic fictional dystopias that are hierarchical in this exact manner.

I mean, I guess I'm saying "earth is a dystopia" which is maybe a bit absurd too, but idk (lol xp)

I don’t get the point of the singling out the US.

i don't either, good thing no one has done this here

The point is that the US propaganda machine continues to successfully spin it as the best of all possible worlds to its own population and the world population at large.

― Daniel_Rf, Friday, December 10, 2021 9:37 AM (three minutes ago)

This is very true, and I do wonder if non-Americans can fully grasp the torrent of American exceptionalism that is pumped into you from a young age. That VHS said "Republicans" are the ones who primarily do this says a lot to me

the reason people call america dystopian is because it resembles one if those movies, hope this helps, its not actually that deep… but also it kind of is

people have speakers in their home that listen to and record everything they say, why are we even arguing about this

yes but their quality of life is good

but for how long? amazon echo / google voice / siri / alexa / VR / smart speakers ~~THINK ABT IT~~

just reading the isaac chotiner interview with enes kanter and his arguments are basically verbatim what VHS is saying

Ok, the thread has convinced me that using the dytopiometer to measure nation-states is a bit pointless, but I am curious VHS: what do you make of a place like Canada whose unarguably high quality of life is based on past and present forms of colonialist extraction both within and without Canada? How would you describe that situation? Dystopia doesn't seem right to me either, but how would you describe a society that achieves such comfort by stealing land, poisoning the atmosphere, exploiting global labour, etc.? There are classic fictional dystopias that are hierarchical in this exact manner.

I mean, I guess I'm saying "earth is a dystopia" which is maybe a bit absurd too, but idk (lol xp)

― rob, Friday, December 10, 2021 9:39 AM (twenty-seven minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

It's colonialism, which sucks and should be prevented as much as possible. I worked a lot with victims of the residential school system over the past two years, I am well aware of the horrific origins of my standards of living. If the sentence is 'Being a FNIM in Canada is a dystopia' I would agree, if it were 'Canada is a dystopia' then no, it isn't.

Also people outside of the US are very aware of American exceptionalism, thinking we wouldn't be is condescending (in a very american way). I just believe that the problems Americans are facing are standard problems most societies have to deal with, the only unique thing is exceptionalism distorts the image.

That americans happen to deal with these problems with an accumulated wealth and power that places them among the luckiest of the world, if the nation decides to vote Trump and a dumb wealth tax instead of building a health care system, it is the fault of americans, it doesn't change the fact that being born american is mostly having won the lottery.

That there is a reason why Bangladeshis move to the US and Americans don't move to the Bangladesh, yes, foreign policy has a large horrific impact on Bangladesh but its citizens are not stupid enough to think that life is Bangladesh is better than in the US, it has nothing to do with American 'propaganda', they are smart, they have the made the calculus, it's just, life in the US is better, and it might be for reasons an american with no experience living in Bangladesh won't understand.

That saying the US is a better place than most of the world is neither absolving US of its domestic problems (I am firmly in the single payer health care and no guns camp) or its horrendous foreign policy.

i think it's condescending that you aren't reading the posts of anyone who is arguing with you

That would be inconvenient to the shite he wants to post

That americans happen to deal with these problems with an accumulated wealth and power that places them among the luckiest of the world, if the nation decides to vote Trump and a dumb wealth tax instead of building a health care system, it is the fault of americans, it doesn't change the fact that being born american is mostly having won the lottery.

like this is ridiculous. which americans have the benefit of the accumulated wealth and power? which decided not to build a health care system? i didn't decide to have a senate, or an electoral college, or a cabal of catholics who are going to decide i don't have a constitutional right to an abortion.

go ahead and tell me the definition of cabal next though