EZRA KLEIN v MATT YGLESIAS

US rates considerably higher in terms of quality of life and civil rights in the imagination of both its population and (crucially) the world population than it does in reality, thinking ppl underrate it on those counts is prime evidence of living in a bubble.

Yes, the US is not ‘the greatest place on earth’ like some republicans will want you to believe. Yes, there’s a (relatively small) bunch of countries that offer better of qualify of life to its citizens. But the gap is so large with so many of the other countries that cries of misery or dystopia rings extremely out of touch with reality.

did you know that the united states has the largest prison population and that its police kill and abuse with impunity

responding to someone saying that the usa has many dystopian qualities by pointing out that it has a relatively high standard of living is not only a non sequitur its also you know uh possessing many of the qualities typically associated with sociopathy

its also as far as the political geniuses like matty go just not a good political argument, reminiscent of hillary gift shops america is already great hat, check out the country wrong track polling number if you dont belive me, also just check out the country lol

The definition of dystopia is that every aspect of society is catastrophically terrible, of course I understand it’s hyperbolic, the point made still sounds like first world privilege crying. I find it’s a description of the US that does not fit my experience with nations in which things are much closer to catastrophically terrible than the US, nor with the US itself.

anyone who cant see that the usa creates tremendous suffering for a vast number of people worldwide and at home and is currently in grave danger of getting much worse absolutely has their head up their ass or is benefiting from said suffering or some combination of the two

i mean why would people think this looks like dystopia when they have large clothes driers (on average)

https://static01.nyt.com/images/2016/07/31/magazine/31onphoto1/31mag-31onphoto-t_CA0-videoSixteenByNineJumbo1600.jpg

look at the vast selections of food available you whiners

https://media.newyorker.com/photos/5c3e10b2f92c694343cc71b9/4:3/w_1424,h_1068,c_limit/Rosner-Fast-Food-Trump.jpg

Ah yes, police interrupting protests using violence, an uniquely american experience.

The last time I ate a quarter pounder was a dystopic experience.

you should be thankful to live here and be a rich blogger

https://i.redd.it/c6ft6k1tuli51.jpg

Ah yes, police interrupting protests using violence, an uniquely american experience.

― Van Horn Street, Friday, December 10, 2021 8:12 AM (one minute ago) bookmarkflaglink

this argument is not quite as clever as you think, and does fwiw contradict your previous one

The definition of dystopia is that every aspect of society is catastrophically terrible, of course I understand it’s hyperbolic, the point made still sounds like first world privilege crying. I find it’s a description of the US that does not fit my experience with nations in which things are much closer to catastrophically terrible than the US, nor with the US itself.

― Van Horn Street, Friday, December 10, 2021 7:59 AM (sixteen minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

if you understand it then why are you arguing with no one here

pointing out the U.S.'s problems is not first world privilege ffs. NO ONE knows what the tweet was actually about but if it was about being #1 in school shootings or incarceration that would not be "privilege"

that definition of dystopia is such a lame attempt to not engage with what people are saying too lol

our already imperfect democracy is clearly eroding further to the point that we are in obvious danger of becoming a fully authoritarian state

shut up you baby put your clothes in the big expensive drier

I just find the notion insulting to all the people who live in conditions that are much much worse than what the average american get to live, and that happens to be the vast majority of the world. I just think the rethoric is a populist device that is detached from reality (things like quality of life and standards of living are measured, the US is doing very well).

xpost i mean at least a comment about the definition is responsive in a way that "well actually the income/quality of life (whatever that means) is higher than everywhere" is not, but that definition is also so extreme that it would like never be OK to say the word in this context

i'm pretty sure kate aronoff is aware of that and was frustrated about something at 2 a.m., i'm not sure why you haven't considered that

the people saying these things might actually care about the suffering of their fellow humans worldwide, rather than just using them for a dismissive rhetorical device, something to think about

because of course a huge issue with the usa is its responsible for a lot of that suffering

yes, it's dystopic

I don’t think she is the only one using that sort of doom/dystopia rethoric. I just agree with Yglesias that the left shouldn’t engage with that sort of thinking. Any domestic problem in the US is of its own making, most nations on earth don’t have the luxury to solve problems in that way.

Anecdotally the ppl I know who come from the countries that are worst off in terms of living conditions would actually enthusiastically agree with the statement "the UK is a dystopia" because, being mostly undocumented migrants, they have experienced its dystopian elements more than myself or anyone on this thread. Pretty sure that'd be the same for the US.

how dare you use the bad word

https://i.imgur.com/u3hBxgk.png

just glad being ruled by sinister mega corporations is something that only happens in scifi

hey that looks like a useful word to describe many aspects of the american experience

The reason the US feels dystopian is because of the massive disparities between rich and poor and between racialized groups. Appealing to averages misses the point--what's infuriating and depressing about the place is that there is a ton of money sloshing around that could be used to help people (see the just passed defense bill) and that certain classes of people do enjoy civil rights while others do not. That America is not North Korea isn't particularly relevant when considering Black teenagers spending months or years in Rikers without a trial or immigrant detention or etc.

Also, merriam says the "essential" definition of dystopia = "an imaginary place where people are unhappy and usually afraid because they are not treated fairly"; there are parts of the US that are undeniably captured by that description.

I would also say that dealing with the privatized health care system can indeed feel dystopian in a classic literary, Kafkaesque way

sorry bit of an xpost

Any domestic problem in the US is of its own making, most nations on earth don’t have the luxury to solve problems in that way.

― Van Horn Street, Friday, December 10, 2021 8:40 AM (two minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

jolly good ill just get on that then, oh the police seem to be hitting me now, but thats ok its normal no worries im sure well get to the bottom of this in no time

it does feel luxurious to be able to solve these domestic problems that i made all by myself

Also, merriam says the "essential" definition of dystopia = "an imaginary place where people are unhappy and usually afraid because they are not treated fairly"; there are parts of the US that are undeniably captured by that description.

Absolutely, but in my experience unhapiness, fear and injustice are even higher in second and third world countries. Also, the fact that americans itt are mainly talking about problems happening americans society atm and not the specific problems plaguing other nations, as if the barometer was their own culture/nation/society is telling.

We have done a magnificent job in the last century inflicting problems on other nations.

if someone is suffering they shouldnt complain if someone somewhere else is suffering worse, only the most suffering guy can complain, then when he dies its next man up

we need to get this important message to all the people rotting in american jails for selling a crack rock in 1992

yeah i'm wondering when it's appropriate to talk about our own country's problems

sir did you know saudi jails are actually much worse than this now please shut up ok

Saying that the US is not a dystopia is not saying that the US is an utopia.

you are extremely frustrating

Certainly not as much as having to deal with american-centric views 24/7 for a whole life.

Sounds pretty...dystopian

lol i wasnt going to bring up that you were canadian but now that you have well yeah i can understand why you might be annoyed obvs but your arguments in this thread dont go much further than that and are on their merits extremely poor

there's america-centric and there's "on topic." i'd like to live in a less america-centric world too. when i think about how america's *average* standard of living got to be so much higher than everyone else's i feel a little bit sick, tbh.

Sounds pretty...dystopian

― rob, Friday, December 10, 2021 9:14 AM (eight minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

If the sentence was ‘the US sometimes imposes dystopia on other nations’ then yes, I would agree.

and on its own citizens too, good im glad we could all agree on this very obvious truth

Can't really complain about American-centric thinking, 100% no reason for anyone outside the US to have even the most cursory knowledge of a complete non-entity like Matthew Yglesias unless you're already complicit in talking too much about America.

Part of the problem myself ofc

Then almost everything in the world today and in history has been a dystopia. I don’t get the point of the singling out the US.

uh oh lol

The point is that the US propaganda machine continues to successfully spin it as the best of all possible worlds to its own population and the world population at large.