quiddities and agonies of the ruling class - a rolling new york times thread

in interviewing oxford candidates i like to think i have become pretty good at detecting coached candidates. we make a note of it and it probably ends up being adjusted for (i.e. counting against them), although not in a formal way.

i'm not saying sometimes a little direction and counseling is totally unnecessary but this is retarded. if you can't figure out how to get in without spending $40k, there is no hope for you in life xxp

(They don't make their own ways in their own lives? Fuck, that sentence is fucking me up).

Anyway, yeah. All the kids I knew who went to Harvard? Lower middle-class kids who, like me, thought that using a counselor for the process was incredibly ridiculous. Most of the kids who used the counselor types ended up going to Penn, in the city where they grew up, and now where they still live. As in: they never did anything except rely on what they already knew, thus growing little.

I.e., if you were lucky enough to have parents with college educations who knew a little bit about the process, their advice and "normal parent" help would be the equivalent of, I dunno, a four-day $14k boot camp from an ex-admissions person drilling you on How to Get In

i'm not saying sometimes a little direction and counseling is totally unnecessary but this is retarded. if you can't figure out how to get in without spending $40k, there is no hope for you in life xxp

― blobfish russian (harbl), Monday, July 20, 2009 2:22 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

do u really think this is true of like harvard/yale/princeton?

Oh sure, caek, but it's also totally situational for most families not using these expensive services. A lot of kids I know got no help from their parents, a ot of kids I know got tons of help. I knew my essay and everything was good, I didn't need to show my parents that shit. Especially because my mom was all weepy that I wasn't applying early to an Ivy, but instead 'throwing away my talents' to go to...uh...yeah, that school that I went to and enjoyed most thoroughly.

not caek, sorry, nabisco xpost.

no max i am being hyperbolic but it does make them sound stupid

Never mind that admissions officers say that no outsider can truly predict how a particular applicant might fare. “I guess there are snake oil salesman in every field,” said Amy Gutmann, the president of the University of Pennsylvania, “and they are preying on vulnerable and anxious people.”

i am also deeply skeptical of the *need* to go to harvard/yale/princeton to begin with so that's like half the problem for me

getting into college, especially the top tier of college, is really hard

It depends what kind of student you are. If you don't stand out in any way, then yes. Probably, because you shouldn't be going to a top tier college.

xp nabisco: I had normal parent help that consisted of my mom reading my essay answers and telling me when the applications were due and making me sit at the kitchen table and work on them until they were done. I think I wrote one essay about the annoying way my dad made orange juice.

i remember throwing a tantrum because my mom read my essay without asking X(

getting into college, especially the top tier of college, is really hard

― rip dom passantino 3/5/09 never forget (max), Monday, 20 July 2009 18:18 (9 minutes ago)

But there's no evidence that there's any causative relationship between spending low five figures on a counselor and increasing your chances of getting in. It seems a little like test prep to me -- the "best" people might charge as much per hour as an attorney to tutor your child, but those tutors don't know anything that isn't in a Kaplan course or a $29.95 book for that matter. There are no "secrets."

there are more students who stand out than there are places, so it's hard even for those who are the "right sort", xxp

(i am not saying a counselor is a good use of anyone's money though)

It depends what kind of student you are. If you don't stand out in any way, then yes. Probably, because you shouldn't be going to a top tier college.

i dont think any of this is true! for one thing: a lot of students who stand out in several ways in certain contexts still have a lot of trouble getting into the top tier of colleges! for another: i dont think that only those who "stand out" should go to top tier colleges, and i think a lot of admissions officers agree with me!

Never mind that admissions officers say that no outsider can truly predict how a particular applicant might fare. “I guess there are snake oil salesman in every field,” said Amy Gutmann, the president of the University of Pennsylvania, “and they are preying on vulnerable and anxious people.”

Coming from this woman, that is seriously surprising-- any admissions counselor knows that a kid from a Philly private school with mostly B's (and some scattered A's and C's) is going to go to Penn. They let kids like that in as if the fucking world depended on it.

(A kid from a public school in Philly? Yeah, you gotta get all A's).

haha table I am aware that not everybody gets a lot of parental involvement on college applications, I'm just not sure how this makes it abnormal for those who do! I mean, I wouldn't walk into a house where someone's proofreading their kid's essay and go "omg you FREAKS" and call child protective services

anyway clearly in these "counselor" cases we are talking about a socio-economic sphere that's not the one most of us know -- most everyone I knew as a teenager had parents who just wanted their kid to get into a decent school they could manage to pay for, which is very different from this more competitive and wealthy east-coasty thing, or from parents who feel like they should be using their large sums of money to absolutely maximize their kid's educational turnout, from the private kindergarten on up (and possibly even have parental status-competition about what schools kids get into, right along with the kid competition) -- surely this is the point where, if you have $14k to spare and you think there's any remote chance it'll help your kid do better in the process than he/she otherwise would have, you write the check as an "investment in your child's future." whether that remote chance actually exists is sort of a different story; haha probably depends on how clever you think your kid is to begin with

maybe this is stereotyping but a lot of this has to do with parents ensuring that their statuses will be cemented, and there's a long ass history of rich people spending frivolously to do that

But there's no evidence that there's any causative relationship between spending low five figures on a counselor and increasing your chances of getting in. It seems a little like test prep to me -- the "best" people might charge as much per hour as an attorney to tutor your child, but those tutors don't know anything that isn't in a Kaplan course or a $29.95 book for that matter. There are no "secrets."

― the kid is crying because did sharks died? (Hurting 2), Monday, July 20, 2009 2:34 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

well sure, i dont disagree with this; im not defending the practice of college admissions counseling, just the motivations behind it. i wouldnt hire a college admissions counselor for my kid but i understand why people do it.

I mean, I take it for granted that Ivy-type schools contain a fair number of people (non-legacy, even) who are not grand clever stand-outs but have gotten upmarket educations from youth and did reasonably okay at someplace like Exeter and had good test prep for their boards and so on -- i.e., people who didn't like excel their way into a top-tier school but started out on a high tier and just competently kept things rolling up there

most everyone I knew as a teenager had parents who just wanted their kid to get into a decent school they could manage to pay for, which is very different from this more competitive and wealthy east-coasty thing, or from parents who feel like they should be using their large sums of money to absolutely maximize their kid's educational turnout, from the private kindergarten on up

This was my experience as well. I was accepted to a couple of schools that were more "better"/more prestigious than the one I ended up attending, but my parents wanted me to attend a school they could afford without having to take out massive loans.

Lol, more "better"! I guess I could have benefited from an Ivy, I might have improved my proofreading skills.

in general tho i think that if a kid has spared no expense in trying to get into college - and a lot of rich kids that had college admissions counselors worked harder than me and put in a lot more effort doing "community service" and shit - than i see no reason why a parent shouldn't spare no expense to ensure that the kid actually does get in to wherever they want. if you have it then whatever.

btw the fact that i grew up in princeton nj which has the double whammy of being a university town (and therefore one that cares more than average about education, probably?) and a pretty rich town (and therefore one that cares more than average about the status that accompanies an ivy degree, probably?) means that im probably a little more sympathetic to this practice

i dont think that only those who "stand out" should go to top tier colleges, and i think a lot of admissions officers agree with me!

From all the admissions-related stuff I've read - by admissions officers - they are generally looking for students that stand out in some way -- not necessarily the best grades or test scores -- being devoted to a particular subject or activity, having a unique background/experiences and an interesting perspective on them, etc. But maybe that's just my alma mater.

i.e. i grew up at like ground zero for the rich east coast competition thing that nabiscos talking about

xpost

most everyone I knew as a teenager had parents who just wanted their kid to get into a decent school they could manage to pay for,

Most everyone I knew as a teenager who went to college went to a state school or BYU (which is about as cheap as CA State Universities if one's family is Mormon). So, it was pretty much a given that it would be affordable.

xp Max - kids where I grew up competed to go to Cal Poly -- which they considered the "top" school for agribusiness or veterinary medicine.

i've had 2 siblings who were exemplary HS students, great grades & activities & sports etc, and sure they "stood out" enough to get admitted to their schools of choice but uh-oh, not good enough for scholarship monies, off to the USAF academy you go

college admissions is a crapshoot and the more money you have then the freer you are to gamble but let's not kid ourselves here

the high school i graduated from had one of these ppl on staff - like a dude whose whole job was getting the schools graduating seniors into good schools and it was probably helpful and may have helped get me into a better school than i "deserved" to go to since im not particularly smart or unique. like basically nabs point that having someone reading over your essays and doing interview prep and keeping the whole process on lock for u whether its a parent or a paid professional its not necessary but it helps a lot.

also i probably buy into/care about college "prestige" and "tiers" because everyone i know growing up did and also see above re: not that smart but i dont think its stupid to push any edge u can get for your children

elmo otm.

Oh, Max, maybe you can answer a question for me, about something I've always thought but don't know for certain -- part of why I said "east-coasty" up there is that I've always had this sense that for wealthier east-coast kids it's considered somehow, like, shameful or embarrassing to go to school in lots of the rest of the country, like you've been exiled to the Midwest for incompetence or something, even though there are plenty of private schools around offering an education that's pretty comparable to some east-coast private schools. Does that seem right to you? Because I'm pretty sure a whole lot of why parents I knew in Colorado or Michigan or Illinois didn't go nuts about college-application stuff was that, you know, your kid is not applying to Bennington, she will be perfectly fine going to Washington U or Macalester or something. (Or any of a number of state schools, like Michigan, that people have a lot more belief in outside the cluster of old private colleges on the east coast...)

also i probably buy into/care about college "prestige" and "tiers" because everyone i know growing up did and also see above re: not that smart but i dont think its stupid to push any edge u can get for your children

I pretty much picked the schools I applied to based on weather, whether it seemed like there'd be cool things to do in the area, and if the people seemed friendly.

My wife (and a lot of my friends) went to Michigan and there were tons and tons of east coast people there - as you got closer to campus you'd see lots of new cars with New Jersey, New York, Connecticut, and Pennsylvania plates on them. We always assumed they were kids who didn't get into any Ivy League schools and Michigan was one of the top choices of their second tier places.

i consulted a respected psychic it cost my parents $4,000 (xp)

We always assumed they were kids who didn't get into any Ivy League schools and Michigan was one of the top choices of their second tier places.

I'm pretty sure this is the case.

And this is not snarking on Michigan, I went there as well.

There's also a west coast bias. One of my good friends went to Michigan, (he's from Detroit), and people out here are just "oh, midwest state school," when it's pretty much, as I understand it, the midwest equivalent of UC Berkeley. A lot of the east coast liberal arts schools, people out here haven't heard of.

FWIW, when I did the whole college admissions process I did read Michele Hernandez's book (quoted in the article) and I can't imagine what she would tell you for $14k that she didn't already reveal in the book.

Oh, Max, maybe you can answer a question for me, about something I've always thought but don't know for certain -- part of why I said "east-coasty" up there is that I've always had this sense that for wealthier east-coast kids it's considered somehow, like, shameful or embarrassing to go to school in lots of the rest of the country, like you've been exiled to the Midwest for incompetence or something, even though there are plenty of private schools around offering an education that's pretty comparable to some east-coast private schools. Does that seem right to you? Because I'm pretty sure a whole lot of why parents I knew in Colorado or Michigan or Illinois didn't go nuts about college-application stuff was that, you know, your kid is not applying to Bennington, she will be perfectly fine going to Washington U or Macalester or something. (Or any of a number of state schools, like Michigan, that people have a lot more belief in outside the cluster of old private colleges on the east coast...)

― nabisco, Monday, July 20, 2009 2:56 PM (9 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

this is completely 100% true of people of my parents generation (note here that im specifically talking about a certain socioeconomic background)--my mom, who is a very liberal person otherwise, still has trouble adjusting to the idea that the school i went to was a "good" school by most measurements--and still true to certain extent in my generation (again, talking about a certain socioeconomic class here) though not nearly as much as it once was... outside of, basically, stanford, u chicago, maybe oberlin, maybe berkeley, maybe, uh, cmu or something, i dont think my mom rates any schools west of philadelphia at all.

i went to public school so my peer group was probably less wealthy than my parents was, and certainly less wealthy than the surrounding private schools, but even in my school there was a certain amt of education snobbery, and im sure that was true to an even greater extent at lawrenceville and peddie, to name two prep schools w/in 10 miles of me

From all the admissions-related stuff I've read - by admissions officers - they are generally looking for students that stand out in some way -- not necessarily the best grades or test scores -- being devoted to a particular subject or activity, having a unique background/experiences and an interesting perspective on them, etc. But maybe that's just my alma mater.

― well I'm married to a limping, crescent-shaped abortion (sarahel), Monday, July 20, 2009 2:42 PM (29 minutes ago) Bookmark

IME this has led to campuses full of self-consciously "quirky" and "zany" wags. Really fucking annoying.

haha my favorite state-school east-coasters were always the ones around the University of Colorado, a scary amount of whom seemed like the evil preppy guys from 1980s ski movies

xpost - yeah, I honestly think people in the midwest are both, well ... (a) pretty spoiled for great-school options, and (b) possibly a lot more rational and centered in their general ideas of what's a good school to go to. but maybe that's just my Midwest bias on this one.

xpost - haha I almost posted earlier "sending your arty kid to oberlin doesn't count" ... yeah, it's weird, there are like a million pretty solid small private colleges dotted all around the country breezily giving good educations to midwestern kids, no test prep or counseling required, just being reasonably smart at a public school

i almost went to antioch! i think it was a little too bad-ass for me

to be fair to my moms though my understanding is that the landscape of higher education was a lot different in the 60s/70s when she was in school than it is now--i think the quality of colleges across the board has gone up, and i think theres been a certain amount of playing-field-leveling, especially on the undergraduate level

max is a rich kid college student

― chaki

yeah COLLEGE BOY

btw when it came time for my dad to graduate from his east coast prep school he was called into the office of the school college counselor, asked to give his top 2-3 school choices and fill out those applications, and say where his dad and grandfathers had gone to school. the counselor would do this with all the boys in the school, and then call up the deans of admission at harvard, yale, pton, cornell, etc., and say "well weve got 6 boys here who would like to go to harvard" and theyd bargain a little bit and then everyone would get notified.

see, the thing with Oberlin is that it is very populated by kids from the midwest who were the best brightest and weirdest....a handful of richies from the coasts...

and, most significantly, a huge population of kids whose parents are or were professors. that statistic, to me, was an indicator that the school had something going for it. think it also convinced my mom, tho i will say that when she saw how happy i was at oberlin, she started repping the school to people all over.

i almost went to antioch! i think it was a little too bad-ass for me

I think making fun of Antioch for wtf political correctness made Brown students feel better.